The Life and Times of Jean Gould
because every family needs an angel



Recorded in May/June of 1998
JG = Jean Yvonne Coventry Gould
JV = Janell Larson Vasquez
Grandpa = Robert Kilbourne Gould




Chapter 1 - Father's Parents



JV: First of all, tell me a little bit about how you spent time with your father's parents, you
grandparents on your father's side.

JG: The clearest thing in my memory is going there at Thanksgiving time.  We used to go every
year and the whole family would get together on my father's side.  My grandfather and
grandmother had a big farm that apparently my grandfather acquired after the war, or was it
before?  No, it had to be before the war, around Syracuse, Fulton, New York.  And apparently
they either got property at a very modest price or maybe even were granted....  I don't know what
the situation was.  But he had a good size farm.  He went there and ran it for quite a while and
my father, that had to be in 1913 because my father did not finish high school.  He didn't...  He
finished high school but he didn't graduate because he had to go help his father on the farm that
summer.  Well, apparently it didn't last too terribly long because he was there for a while and
whether he came back around the area in Albion or what I don't know.  But he had known my
mother and her family before that.


JV: Like in high school?

JG: Like in high school probably.  My mother had already graduated because she was older than
he was.  But anyway, I know he came back and they were married the following year - no, they
were married in November of '13 because my brother was born in August of 1914.  And then
that is when I remember, of course my brother was 6 years older than I am, but when I was old
enough to remember we always went to Fulton and the farm for Thanksgiving.  And that's about
the only time of the year we saw them.  And it was a big family get-together, and I don't
remember anything really special about it except that it was in the wintertime when they didn't
have any central heating, of course, and we always used to come tearing downstairs - there was a
whole bunch of kids - and we'd come tearing downstairs to get dressed around the big potbellied
stove in the living room 'cause it was so darn cold upstairs.  

Then I remember everybody sitting around this great big huge table in a small dining room
because they had a big kitchen/dining room area that they used normally.  But there was a little
smaller room off the kitchen (what would I do without my hands?) that had this big dining room
table and that's where everybody sat for Thanksgiving dinner.  That's about it.  

At the point that I remember, my aunt and uncle - my father's sister and her husband - were
living there too because my grandfather had gotten older, I don't know whether he wasn't well,
but he wasn't all that great a manager, I guess.  And my aunt - what was her name?  Oh, Janell, I
can't remember!  The sister, the older sister, anyway.


JV: The older sister?

JG: Yeah.  I'll think of it in a minute.  She married this guy who was a real good farmer.  He was
from the area - Loomis, his name was - and he was a good farmer so he pretty much took over
and ran the place.  And he ran it ever after that, as far as I know.  Because in the end, my
grandfather and grandmother ended up coming back to Orleans County in New York and lived
with a younger brother of my father's who was, yeah, he was alright.  He was sort of a ne'er-do-
well, he never did too much.  But anyway, they bought this house and my grandmother kept
house and lived with them because he had a little boy, or an older one, the kid was oh, maybe 8-9
years old.  And I don't remember whether his mother had died - she had a few mental problems
that I remember so my uncle Kenneth ended up having the boy and my grandmother pretty much
brought him up even though she was quite out in age, she was quite deaf, she had one of these
big hearing aides that you wore on your chest.  Awful thing, she hated it, but she just couldn't
hear anything without it.  So I guess I take after her!  And my father had gotten, in his later years,
he was getting sort of hard-of-hearing, but of course he died much younger than I am even, so his
didn't get as bad as mine is now.  I'm diverting aren't I?


JV: (laugh) That's ok. 

JG: I remember one of my aunts fairly well, Aunt Bessie.  She lived up there, she married a
farmer but he wasn't very ambitious and they didn't do too well.  Had a bunch of kids, but didn't
do all that well.  The one who lived on the farm did better than any of them.  My father's other
sister, Grace, younger sister, lived in Albion.  She had 3 kids.  We went there a lot because he
always got along very well with that sister, and apparently my mother did too so that was
agreeable.  So Albion was really the center of all the family stuff as I remember it, for both sides
actually, because I can still see my Aunt Grace - I'd go down there in the summer when I was a
kid - and I can still - she loved to back - I can still see her having a great big round bowl.  They
didn't have any cake mixes then or anything, and she used to make these real good angel food
cakes and all other kinds of stuff too.  And she used to take the spoon and she'd go back and
forth all the way around the dish to get the thing clean.  She could clean out a dish cleaner than
anybody I ever remember.  I never got the knack that she had, but I try! (laugh) But I got along
real well, I liked Aunt Grace real well.  I stood in awe, sort of, of her husband, but he was all
right.  I mean, I was just little.  I'm sure I got homesick when I used to go down there, but I'd get
over it because she'd get me over it.  Her girls were younger, a little bit younger than I am.  But
really, that's all I can remember as far as my grandparents and that side of the family are
concerned.  As I got older, we used to go down and see my grandmother before she died.  I
vaguely remember when my grandfather died.  They took him back up to Fulton, and he was
buried up there.  We went to that funeral.  I don't remember my grandmother Coventry dying,
sad to say.  I don't remember it.  You can probably tell me the year, but I can't tell you when it
was.  That's about all I can tell you of any stories or anything because I don't remember my
father telling any stories.  He and his father did not get along, apparently.  I didn't know too
much about it, but I just got that impression sort of.  He just went back mostly probably because
of my grandmother.  


JV: Don't really know why they didn't get along?

JG: No, honestly, I don't.  They never talked about it, really.  I don't think people then did in
those days.  They felt the kids shouldn't know that kind of stuff, I guess.  I can remember some
of the bad that was on my mother's side of the family. (laugh) But my father was not a person
who gossiped, ridiculed, or anything.  He never found fault with anybody or criticized anybody
that I can remember.  He was quite a quiet person.  He was pretty well liked because he did a
good business.  When he started out, when he came back apparently from that summer, his uncle
who was my grandfather's brother had a restaurant in Lockport, and that's where he started
working when my mother and he were married, they came to Lockport and he worked in this
restaurant.  And I don't know how long it was after that, whether my uncle had the bakery at the
same time or not, but my father ended up eventually going into the bakery and then he bought it
in the '20s, he bought it from my uncle.  And then he ran it from then on until the Depression
when he lost it.  So it really, I don't have that much of the Coventry side of the family.  


JV: What do you remember about their personalities or their personality traits?

JG: My Aunt Bessie was a real sweet docile person, she's the one that lived up around Fulton and
married, her name was Farmer, and she married a farmer who wasn't much of a farmer.  So they
had a rough time but she was a real sweet loveable person.  Your mother can tell you about her
because she corresponded with her and talked to her on the phone, more than I ever did, really.  I
tried going there once but she had all boys.  And, oh, it as awful!  I just couldn't stand it there. 
And my Aunt Lucille, that was the older sister.  I told you I'd think of it.  She ended up, she had
2 boys and then she had one girl.  I tried to go there and spend some time during the summer
once but that didn't work either because she was much younger than I was.  So my Aunt Grace's,
like I said, was the only place I ever went to on that side of the family.  But Aunt Lucille was
very aggressive.  She was the boss of the family, more probably like my grandmother, I mean my
grandfather, very sometimes quite belligerent.  But her husband kept up with her all right.  Aunt
Grace was the next-to-the youngest, or maybe the youngest, she was.  But she had a real nice,
likeable personality.  She was well liked around Albion and everybody knew her.  She apparently
had stayed there.  She didn't go to Fulton when they moved up there from Gaines in Orleans
County.  She apparently stayed there with an aunt, a sister of my grandfather's also who lived
there.  I remember her vaguely, my father was very fond of her and we used to go visit her but I
as too little.  I don't really remember all that much about her except that she had a (milners
shop?) and her name was Grace too.  And I think Aunt Grace stayed with her when grandma and
grandpa went back up north because she wanted to finish high school.  And Kenneth was, like I
said, he never made any impression much on anybody.  He was very easy-going, didn't have
much ambition, never did anything - I guess he kept a job, he ended up working at Bell's during
the war and did all right.  In fact, my grandmother and grandfather lived with them when he had
that job, they lived up around Buffalo.  And that was before apparently they went back to Gaines
to live.  I don't know whether he was old - no, he wasn't old enough to retire because my father
died before he was old enough to retire.  So I don't know what they lived on, to tell you the
honest to goodness truth.  But like I said, nobody ever talked about it.  I don't remember my
father ever having to take on any responsibility for keeping them, so I don't know whether they
got money from my Aunt Lucille and Uncle Carl when they took over the farm or what.  I really
don't know.  


JV: That farm was in Albion?

JG: No, that one's the one up in Fulton.


JV: The farm was in Fulton that they got. 

JG: That's north of Syracuse.  


JV: And you grew up where?  What city did you grow up in?

JG: I grew up in Lockport.  Yeah, after my father went up there that summer to help my
grandfather on the farm, that was the reason he couldn't graduate from high school, like I said. 
He finished high school, but he couldn't stay around to graduate.  He went up there, helped his
father, and then my mother and father were married in November then came back and they
moved to Lockport.  And that's where I grew up.


JV: Oh, ok.  I see.

JG: Even though, I mean, they stayed there all after from the time he went there.


JV: And then once Lucille and her husband took over the farm, then their grandparents moved in
with the uncle?

JG: Pretty much, I guess.  Well, they lived there on the farm for a while but then they went with
this uncle Kenneth.  He was this younger one who I said wasn't all that great.  But he did get a
job during the war at Bell, which was a big aeronautics place in Buffalo.  And they went up there
because I think that's when he had this kid, and my grandmother took care of him.  And that, I
just remembered that.  And then from there they must have gone back down to Gaines.  And why
they went back to Gaines, I don't know.  But they bought this house and lived in it.  The dumb
thing's still standing down there too.  (laugh) Now, you always used to notice it when we went
by.  But that uncle that I mentioned that had the restaurant in Lockport, way back in 1913, ended
up with a store down in Gaines which is just a little, well you just drive through it.  And Route
104, which is the main route across New York state, before they had any freeways and
expressways and all that stuff, and he had this little store there and so he was there too and I
guess maybe my grandfather spent time with him, I don't know.  But they were not a very close
family.  As I remember back now, I remember talk about Uncle Frank, his name was, and my
grandfather didn't get along too well either.  So apparently my grandfather didn't get along with
too many people. (laugh)


JV: He was more the assertive type, and your grandmother was more....?

JG: Yeah, well, he didn't have a heck of a lot of ambition, either.  He wasn't stupid, or anything,
he just didn't have that much ambition and it was a big farm to take care of and he needed Uncle
Carl to do it.  You see, my father in 1913 was only 19 years old because he was born in 1894.  So
my Aunt Grace couldn't have been a terribly lot older because she was the oldest one so she was
probably in her 20s and probably 29-30 when they went to take over the farm. Now, that's just
guessing.  I don't know for sure.  But if I really wanted to stop and figure it out I probably could
but I don't really care that much about ages anymore, you know, I sort of ignore them. 

But, you know, they were all fairly young people.  I tell you one story about one of the trips to
Fulton that we made.  We were coming back, and we were almost home on this Route 104.  And
I remember my father stopping the car - was one of those big old touring car things that had
curtains on, you know, and you sat in the back seat and froze to death and had blankets wrapped
all around you.  And anyway, he stopped the car and there was one of the, a balice type suitcase
in the middle of the road.  And he stopped and picked it up so he didn't run over it.  And they
took it home, there wasn't any cars around or anything, so he took it home and when they went
through it, there was a few odd things - shirts and stuff like that that I remember.  But there was
also a ring box with a diamond ring in it.  But there was no identification in the suitcase at all. 
And we had that suitcase around for years, I can remember the thing.  It was a brown leather. 
And he watched all the papers, he told a lawyer about it, and they watched the papers, you know,
around Niagara Falls, because there really wasn't that much traffic in those days and they thought
maybe someone might advertise for it.  And he put an ad in the paper but never got any response
out of it.  So we ended up with a diamond ring.  And my mother wore it for years, and when my
mother died, we had the ring put in a Masonic ring for my father, that diamond from my mothers,
we had put in a Masonic ring because my father was a great Mason.  And when my father died,
my step-mother gave me that ring and I wore it in a ring for a while, and when David got
married, David had the diamond and that is the diamond that Lynn wears today.


JV: Really, the one that you found in the suitcase?

JG: That's right. (laugh)


JV: That's funny.

JG: A true story!  So, where do we go from here?


JV: Just one question real quick, those trips that you took to Fulton, to the farm, how long was
that drive there?

JG: Oh, 60, 90, maybe.... Rochester was 60 miles, Syracuse was about 30 miles beyond
Rochester and Fulton was maybe 10 or 15, about 100 miles.  It took us 4 or 5 hours.


JV: Really?  So cars didn't go....

JG: No, they didn't go so fast, the weather wasn't all that great, now this was in the fall, in
November, remember.  But my father would keep the store open until 5:30, 6:00, my mother'd be
all ready to go.  We'd get in the car, and we never got there before midnight, 1:00.  I remember
getting there after dark and going up in that freezing cold upstairs and going to bed. Wow!


JV: What did you do to keep yourselves occupied in the car?

JG: Probably fought with my brother! (laugh) Because we were in the back seat, although you
had to be huddled up so much the only thing you could do is talk fight, you couldn't physically
fight with him.  So I probably slept when I was younger because I remember doing that when I
was quite young.  And as I got older we didn't do it, of course, because then I got in my... 10, 11,
12 my grandfather, grandparents had gone.  They weren't at the farm anymore, and when that
happened, we didn't go.  Once my grandparents left we didn't go up to Fulton anymore for
Thanksgiving.  So I as fairly young when we did it.








Chapter 2 - Mother's Parents


JV: Ok, so now we'll go ahead and move over to your mother's parents.

JG: Oh, that's very involved. (laugh)


JV: Well, first of all, tell me about their personalities, what you remember about them, you know,
what kind of people they were.

JG: Didn't I write what my grandmother was in that thing?


JV: Sort of....

JG: Yes, she was a quiet little, she wasn't at all aggressive.  She just sort of sat back and
apparently her husband was a very go-getter, aggressive guy.  Never knew him because he died
either just after or just before my brother was born, I think.  But my Aunt Iva, who was the oldest
one, was "The" matriarch, although she never became a true matriarch because she never
married.  But she was the boss and ran things.  And my grandmother let her.  She just stayed
home and took care of the house.  They went from the house they originally lived in, apparently,
which I don't remember, and bought this real nice modern, then, house on Hazard Parkway.  And
it was a really nice house and where they.... I don't know how they managed it, but this Aunt Iva
worked for an insurance man in Albion so I don't know whether my grandmother had any money
from my  grandfather.  I don't even know whether they had insurance in those days.  But he did,
I'm pretty sure, own a stone quarry and they may have gotten some money from that, I don't
know.  Like I said, people didn't talk about those things, so I don't know.  But anyway, Iva was
"The Boss," and my mother was the next one, and she and Iva did not get along too well at all. 
My mother was very fond of her mother, but she went there because of her mother, not because
of Iva.  And then she had another sister who, no Elizabeth wasn't, I think she's a year younger,
my mother was.  Iva, and then my mother, and then Liv, they called her.  And she had always
lived in Albion too.  She married a man who ran a taxi service and they called it a "Livery
service" in those days.  He had a big barn and I guess in the beginning they took care of horses
even.  But then he had a taxi service and I remember my aunt always drove the taxi.  When they
started using cars a lot, my aunt drove all the cars and I remember she used to go and pick up the
mail from the train station.  They were pretty well known.  They lived right downtown in Albion,
and I liked to go there because they had one daughter that was older than I am and then they had
one that was younger.  But Dorothy and I, that's my cousin, we're real close.  I used to go there a
lot in the summer.  And from there I would go up and visit my grandmother.  Then there was my
aunt Helen.  I don't know whether it was Marion or Helen that was the youngest, but were 2
other sisters, one brother who, there again they were not very close.  When he graduated, he left
home and that was it.  He lived up in Niagara Falls.  We used to go and visit them because my
mother was quite fond of him.  He worked in one of the big chemistry plants in Niagara Falls. 
He was a smart guy.  But they never had any children.  My Aunt Helen married a farmer and they
managed.  They had 2 boys.  I had a real crush on the oldest boy for a long time.  In fact, we were
always very close.  He ended up going in the service, and we always kept in touch.  He and Bob
got along real well, your grandfather.  And he married a nurse.  My Aunt Helen was, oh, kinda
spicy once in a while.  She didn't get along too well with Iva either.  And then there was my Aunt
Marion who was my favorite of all of them.  She was the youngest one.  She used to spend, I
think she went to Brockport Normal too.  Those days, you only had to go to college, it was
Normal school, and you could get a teaching certificate.  In fact, I don't think you even needed a
teaching certificate.  All you needed to do was graduate from a Normal school and you could
teach.  Which my mother had started to do before she and my father were married, because she
graduated from there too only she worked a couple years after she finished high school so she
could put herself through.  I don't know who helped my Aunt Marion get through, but she went
right after she graduated and she taught in Niagara Falls too.  She was an elementary teacher,
very well liked, and she was a real doll, I loved her.  And she used to spend a lot of weekends,
she'd come down to Lockport.  They had a trolley that went between Lockport and Niagara Falls
then, and she'd come down on the trolley and then... (tape cut off)

JG: She had erysipelas.


JV: What's that?

JG: It's a strep infection of the skin.  It used to be quite prevalent, and it strictly came from
contamination from something, they never were very sure what.  But there was just no cure for it
because they didn't have any antibiotics then.  But I remember her dying, I was there, either when
she died or right after because I remember her in the bed.


JV: Did they know how she caught it?

JG: Nope.  It took them quite a while to....  Their face turned real purplish and red.  It was just
totally infected.  But I remember she had a big oxygen tank at the side of the bed.  She didn't live
too terribly long with it because they were ravishing infections. They were really bad.  Strep was
a bad infection.  When she died, that was pretty much the end of...  My mother and father would
sometimes.... Well, I think they did go down to see my Aunt Helen and my Aunt Liv.  But she
died in '34, actually, it was 15 or 16 years before my mother died, but they did not go back and
forth that much after that.  There was always just lots of other things to do to keep them busy.  So
they didn't really go that much once my grandmother died.  I remember my grandmother dying.  I
can't tell you now when it was, really.  I remember going to her funeral.  And after my
grandmother died, my Aunt Iva sold that house on Hazard Parkway.  She was no housekeeper at
all, she couldn't even pick up after herself.  My grandmother always did it.  Then she moved to
an apartment, and she ended up an alcoholic, believe it or not.  So I never saw her after my
grandmother died.  But I did see the other two aunts.  Then I remember my Uncle Gordon dying,
but I don't remember from what he died.  I can't remember whether he died before Marion did or
not.  They died fairly young, and my mother too.  My grandmother was older than all of them, I
guess, and Iva.  She was fairly old when she died.  But that was about the end of my connection
with that side of the family because it was Cousin Dorothy that I was so close to.  We used to see
her because she lived in Buffalo.  Mary had three kids, and the aunt, when my Uncle Gordon died
- like I said, I don't remember when that was - but that sort of ended the connection with Niagara
Falls, too.  I don't know whether his wife is, I'm sure she probably isn't still living, although they
were younger than my parents.  But my parents died fairly young, really.  The only connection
that I really kept was with the boy cousin, Alan, who was Aunt Helen's oldest boy. I still call....
His wife is still alive, and I call her every once in a while and talk to her.  But he died 3 or 4 years
ago, after Robert did, so it's got to be 2 or 3 years.  No, I'm sorry, he died while Grandpa was in
the Veteran's home.  So he did die before Grandpa did.  But that is the end as far as keeping in
touch with any of the family.  I guess they are still around.  Dorothy's kids - she's dead, I didn't
know that she'd died until after she died - her mother, Aunt Liv, she was over 80 when she died,
I remember she was in a nursing home.  She died before her daughter did, but it wasn't too long
afterwards after she died that Dorothy did because she was also in a nursing home.  Really, there
weren't too many long lived ones.  So that is....  I'm trying to think of any funny old stories.  I'll
tell you one funny story that I can remember.  It was after... no, it was before my Aunt Marion
died because she would go home in the summertime when they still had the house on Hazard
Parkway.  I don't know whether she was there that summer, but I had pretty good sized feet so I
could wear her shoes, and I loved to get on her shoes and wear them.  So I got this bright idea - I
can't tell you how old I was, and why they even let me do it, because it had to be a mile and a
half or two miles anyway from where they lived out to the cemetery, it was this big huge
cemetery where my grandfather was buried.  And they had one boy who was buried out there, my
mother's brother.  So anyway, I got this pair of shoes of my aunts, and they had heels maybe an
inch so high, and I started walking out there.  And I got out there and I had such blisters on my
feet, it was awful.  I ended up walking back to my aunt's house, the one who lived down in
downtown Albion because my feet were so sore, I didn't think I could walk all the way back to
my grandfather's.  So I walked down there, and my poor feet, they were all swollen and they had
these big blisters from those crazy shoes.  I do remember that story. (laughs) Like I said, I can't
tell you how old I was, but I sure didn't have much sense, however old I was. (laughs) Old
enough to know better, but I didn't.  But I can't remember whether Marion was still alive then or
not.


Chapter 3 - Jean's family


JV: What has your mom told you about when she was growing up?

JG: Like I said, Janell, they were not talkative people about their lives.  Her father was very
strict, he wasn't home an awful lot.


JV: What did he do?

JG: He ran the stone quarry, which was in Medina, which is outside, just a short distance, maybe
9, 10 miles outside of Albion.  So it really wasn't too far, but I imagine when he started going
there he went in a horse and buggy.  I'm not sure, but he was there a lot of the time.  It seems to
me vaguely I remember - just sort of remarks, possibly - that he might have known a few people
in Medina, but nobody ever really came out and said that maybe he had a lady-friend up there.  I
don't know.  It's in the back of my mind someplace.  I know there was not a great deal of
closeness between my grandmother and grandfather.  Why, I don't know.  But just from the way
they talked.  But I don't think that my grandmother worked anyplace.  I don't remember them
talking about it.  If my mother was 4 years older than my father, she would have been 23, so my
Aunt Iva would have been 25 or 26, she was working then.  So she probably kept the family
pretty much.  And you could do it in those days, and I would suspect that when my grandfather
died maybe there was some money, and that's what they lived on.  Because I don't remember my
grandmother ever working.  But how they lived, I don't know.  And my mother started working
while she was in high school, I can't remember what she did then, she may have worked in...
there was a furniture store, McNall's Furniture, it was called.  And she worked there, maybe
before and after she graduated to get enough money to go to school.  Because Brockport was just
outside of Albion too.  That was toward Rochester, and that's where they went to school.  When
she finished, and I can't tell you what year she graduated - well, it had to be 1913, because she
went immediately in the fall of 1913 down to a little town called Alexander.  And she started
teaching down there, then she and my father were married in November.  I don't think I'm telling
stories out of ....  I think everybody probably knew it and she did too.  But I suspect they had to
get married.  I also suspect that my Aunt Iva had her dibs in for my father too.  And that's one
reason that she and my mother didn't get along very well.  How my mother got my father, I'm
not sure.  Nobody ever said.  Except that my mother did allude at times to my Aunt Iva having a
crush on my father.


JV: He was so young.

JG: I know, he was a lot younger.  That's what my mother always said, he was much too young
for her.  But there also is the story that my mother was 7 years older than my father, but she never
would admit it.  And the town hall in Albion burned, I don't know when, but all the records were
destroyed so they never could prove when my mother was born.


JV: And she says....

JG: And she said she was born in 1890.  The family says 1887.  But she was also very conscious
even of being 4 years older, as she admitted, than my father, I think.  I think she was always very
conscious of that because that didn't happen in those days, it was usually the other way around. 
So it was always very amusing, but they never talked about it.  You never could say anything to
her.  And the monument in the cemetery is 1990 [1890] that she was born.  Not that it really
makes a heck of a lot of difference.


JV: But it's just kinda funny (laughs).

JG: It is, but it's interesting because now it doesn't make any difference, nobody gives a hoot.  I
always thought at one time, I felt maybe that it was something that you never should talk about,
but like you said I don't think it makes any difference.  They had a good life.  I don't think they
were a very... I wouldn't call my mother and father an affectionately married couple.  I don't ever
remember their fighting.  If they did, it was always on the QT.  I don't remember them ever.... 
And my father always supported her as far as her disciplining me or anything.  If she couldn't
give me a whack, he would.  She got so she wasn't.... She was very heavy, and she wasn't really
all that well after I was born.  I'd stress her out pretty good, I guess.  So he'd have to come home
and take over with me a lot of times.  I can remember him coming home from the store, he'd
drive one of the trucks home.  He had 3 trucks on the road from that bakery that went in all
directions around Lockport delivering baked goods in the country and to stores in little small
towns.  Two of the guys would drive the trucks home.  The other truck would stay in town, and
he'd drive that home, and they parked it in a big garage up the street from where we lived.  So
he'd stop at the house, pick me up, take me up to the garage in the truck and then walk me home. 
I can remember that real plain.  I'm sure just for that half hour or whatever it was to get me out of
my mother's hair (laugh). 'Cuz I could be a little problem, I guess, rather a boisterous, tom-
boyish kid.  Quite willful, I guess.  But they never told stories I guess, there are just stories about
what I remember.  (Laughs) I remember, I'd had - caster oil used to be a remedy for all things. 
And I can remember one morning I was supposed to get caster oil because my stomach had been
on the blink.  Oh, I detested it, it was awful.  I can see my father coming up the stairs, and he'd
have this tablespoon of caster oil and a glass - oh, no, it was a little small glass, and in it was a
tablespoon of castor oil, some lemon juice, and water. And he'd have a teaspoon with soda in it. 
And he'd come up the stairs, and he'd say, "Come on, Jean, get over here."  He'd say, "You got
to drink it while it fizzes."  And he'd drop the teaspoon of soda and it would fizz all up and I had
to drink it, that fizzy stuff, and all the castor oil fizzed up with it.  Oh, it was terrible.  So this one
morning I got up before my mother did, and I went down and hid the bottle of castor oil under the
sofa.  And my mother was heavy, she couldn't get down and get it.  And it was one of these big
wooden sofa things.  It had a wooden back with spindles in it and wooden sides, and it was heavy
as the dickens.  She couldn't lift it and get the thing so she could get under it.  So my father had
to finally end up getting the castor oil - no, no, they made me go get it, after she took me out in
the kitchen and sat me down on her lap and whacked the heck out of my rear end because I'd hid
the bottle of castor oil (laughs).  That is one of the spankings I can remember, and there were
many others, many others, but that one I remember.


JV: How did they know that you had hidden it?

JG: I guess I told her. I'm not sure about that, but I probably told her.  Or maybe my brother did,
he could have. But see, there was so much difference.  Six years is a lot when there is nobody in-
between.  I don't remember that much about my brother either.  When we were little, the one
time I remember - we had to come home for lunch from school, and I can remember my mother
had fixed - she used to take stewed tomatoes and fix them like creamed tomatoes or something,
and we'd have it on toast, and that was our lunch.  It wasn't all that bad, but anyway, we were
sitting at the table eating this tomato stuff on toast, and my brother said something. I got mad,
and I picked up the fork and threw it at him.  I got a spanking for that too.  But that's one of the
few things I remember about any fights we had or anything.  I was too young, because he died
when I was 13, and that was before.... Well, I was young for 13.  I wasn't an old 13 like these
kids try to be today.  I was 13, 13 - maybe even younger because I was the baby.  And my father
tended to baby me, I'm sure.  But I don't remember fights and stuff with my brother.  Every once
in a while, some incident will flash that I'll remember, but not an awful lot of them.  I remember
a dog that he got that my mother had fits about, but she let him have it.  It was a big german
shepherd.  And I remember that dog, when my brother died, he had bought a - no, my father had
an old Studebaker that he let him drive.  And as far as the dog was concerned, that was my
brother's car, and he always went with him, when he was driving that one he'd always go with
him in the front seat.  The only way my brother could keep him out of the car was to put a rifle
on the seat because he was scared to death of guns.  So after my brother died, they were going to
sell the car, but it was in the garage and they didn't dare have anybody come and take the car
because the dog would have ripped them to pieces.  And they put the dog down in the cellar,
locked all the doors, shut him down so they locked all the doors but there was a small window in
the basement where they used to deliver coal into the coal cellar.  They burned coal in furnaces
then, and they'd come with this big coal truck and put a chute down there from the truck and
shoot coal down into this coal cellar.  Well, there was still some coal left in it, and that dog
climbed up on the coal that was in there and dragged himself up that wall and got out that
window and wouldn't let that person take the car.  Believe it or not.  That's one thing I
remember.  But there's not an awful lot of things about my brother that I remember.  Except...
Oh, yes I do, another one.  He couldn't go to school when he graduated from high school.  He
was too young in the first place.  Jobs, well, there just weren't any in 1933, or '32 it was.  So he
got a job delivering groceries on a motorcycle thing with a sidecar.  He loved motorcycles.  Of
course that's the way he was killed, on a motorcycle.  But anyway, he had this sidecar thing on
the motorcycle and he'd sometimes come home at noon for lunch, and I'd be down on a corner
and he'd pick me up and let me ride on that motorcycle down to the middle of the block where
we lived.  That I remember doing. 

[JG: What's that bird out there?  JV: A bluebird?  JG: I bluebird?  A bluejay?  I haven't seen one
that close.  I think it's a bluejay.  Your father would love to see that so close.  Well, pardon the
diversion.  Did I ramble on enough?]


JV: That's ok.  I'm just going to go back a little bit, I had one question.  Your grandfather died
really young, your Mom's father.  How did he die?

JG: I don't know, I honestly don't know.  I don't know whether I was ever told and I was young
and just forgot it, but like I said, they never talked too much.  I don't think it was an accident. 
But remember, back then, people would get infections.  I don't think he had a heart attack or
anything like that. I would be apt to think it was something more like pneumonia or something. 
But I don't think it was an accident.


JV: You told me a little about your mother growing up.  Did your father ever tell you anything
about when he was growing up?

JG: I don't remember any stories at all.  In fact, it's strange because I think - I shouldn't say I
think - I don't know whether they lived right in Albion.  I know he went to the Albion schools
but they did that because if he lived down in Gaines where my grandmother and grandfather
ended up, they had little country schools up until 5th or 6th grades, but then they went into town
for the rest of the schooling.  I know that he finished school, but they just never talked about it
that I can remember.  I guess genealogy wasn't as important then as it is now where people
wanted to know.  Maybe, I don't know, I really don't.


JV: Well, it's like with my parents, there are a few stories that they like to tell, you know, but
other than that, to be honest, I don't really know a whole lot either.

JG: I could probably tell you more about when they were growing up.  And that's the important
thing, as far as I'm concerned, is keeping the journals.  I wish everybody would do it.  Of course,
I'm a great one to talk because I didn't either.  But it's the only way you can really pin things
down and remember them.  Because I try to think back about things, with your mother, now,
when she was a kid - try to get some feeling why she gets so upset about her hair for one thing.  I
can't really tell you.  Except she's always been that way that I can remember.  It might help in a
lot of situations, I don't know.  I blame myself a lot, sometimes, because you know how she used
to get so upset because - the one thing I can remember is that she was chubby, and it bothered her
terribly, just awful.  And I never knew whether we made too much fuss about it, or not enough
fuss.  We did take her to a pediatrician, and that was sort of an unusual thing back when she was
little.  But I can remember her going to 4H and they had to make skirts.  Oh, she hated that skirt
because it was a full one, it was on a band, and filled in on a waistband, and it made her look
twice as big as she was.  Oh, she hated that thing, she just hated it.  And I don't know, I think I
used to make her wear it, because I was kind of proud of it.  It didn't bother me that it made her
look chubby, but oh, she hated it.  You think back on those things, and maybe if I had written a
lot of things down, I maybe would have come up with some answers.  But I didn't.  Are you
keeping a journal, like she does?


JV: I used to, not anymore.  I try to write some things down every once in a while, but not as
much as I should.

JG: Well, it's a question of time, really.  And that's one of the things - your mother took the time
to do it.  Does she still?  I haven't seen her doing it in a long time.


JV: No, she hasn't for a long time.

JG: Life is strange, isn't it?


JV: Sure is.  Well there's one more thing.  How did your parents meet?

JG: I don't know.  Must have been in high school, or around town.  Albion was a very small
town, and I'm sure my father worked some place while he was in high school.  I know he played
football.  She may have met him that way, I don't know, really.  Why I was never interested
enough to ask her, I don't know that either.  Seems sort of dumb now that you look back on it,
but I do know that - I think she was going with him pretty much while she was in school - when
she went to Normal School, because you see, he would still have been in high school then.  Or
maybe it was when she was working - I don't know.  Maybe she was more of a.... What's the
word I want?  Maybe she took him away from my Aunt Iva, I don't know. (Laughs) So I don't
really know too much about what went on before they were married except that my mother
obviously had to be teaching from September until November when they were married.  I would
guess maybe that my father just came down from Fulton, I really don't know how to say anything
different except that I know they were married on Thanksgiving Day in November in 1913.  I
don't know where my father worked during that time either, after they were married.  They were
in Albion for a while, because that's where my brother was born in August the following year. 
Now maybe......  No, wait, I remember.  They went back up to the farm in Fulton and they were
there with Grandma and Grandpa for a while.


JV: So they did go down....

JG: After they were married.... They were married in Albion, but then apparently they went for a
while back to the farm to help probably my grandfather get going with the farm thing, and then
they went back to Albion sometime before my brother was born because he was born in Albion,
and then shortly after that they went to Lockport and he started working for his Uncle Frank.


JV: He started working for his Uncle Frank doing?

JG: That was in the restaurant.


JV: Which restaurant?

JG: It was a restaurant that his Uncle Frank had in Lockport, and he was the chef.  He worked
there until sometime - it wasn't too long after my brother was born, I believe - that he went to
work at the bakery in Lockport to where his uncle had acquired.


JV: So first he worked for his uncle at the restaurant, and then he worked for his uncle at a
bakery?

JG: That's right, and then sometime in the 20s, he bought it.  Now, how he bought it I don't
know.  They must have saved money.  I know my mother never worked, so they must have saved
money and he bought it somehow from my uncle.  They never told me any of those details, and I
don't guess I ever asked.  So it's really quite vague, and I don't think that I have forgotten, I don't
think I was ever told.  Apparently, I wasn't smart enough to want to find out.  (Laughs) 
Interested enough, or something.


JV: Your dad only went through high school, is that right? 

JG: That's right


JV: But your mom went past high school?

JG: Yeah, she went to the Normal School.


JV: What does that mean?

JG: It was 3 years... Normal school was strictly for teachers.  Teachers back then could go to 3
years and be qualified teachers.  In fact, his sister, the Aunt Lucille that I talked about, did
extended work in high school so that she was qualified when she finished high school to teach in
a rural school.  It's just one of those little country schools where they had one room, you know,
and 12 or 15 kids all different ages.  But she taught in one of those for quite a while, she told me
about that when I went to visit her one time.  But she never had any further education than high
school.  Times have changed, haven't they?


JV: What kind of a school did your mom teach in?

JG: She taught Latin, so it had to be high school.  She loved Latin, she took all the Latin she
could get.  And I followed right in her shoes, I did too.  I liked it, I took all four years that we had
in high school.


JV: They don't even teach Latin in high school now.

JG: But she never went back to it, never taught after that.


JV: After they got married?

JG: Nope.  I guess, probably, it was because people - women in that age - did not particularly
work outside the home.  I guess she figured she had enough to with my brother and me, so she
didn't even think about it, apparently.  She was pretty good at helping us with homework, I
remember.  I'm sure she's the reason I got through Latin on a lot of stuff because I liked it, but I
needed a little help along the way.  They just had a pretty good life, I guess.  I told you I don't
think I ever heard them fight or argue.  If they did, they did it when I wasn't around.  My father
was very involved in Masons.  My mother got involved - because of his being in the Masons she
could be an Eastern Star.  Eastern Star was the women's branch of the Masonic fraternity for
men.  So she was an Eastern Star, and did that for quite a few years.  They used to have regular
meetings, a couple times a month, I guess.  It kept them socially busy enough that they were
satisfied.  That and a few bridge games during the week.  There were a bunch of women in the
neighborhood who played bridge, and they'd get together two or three afternoons a week
sometimes playing bridge.  She and my father played bridge with a bunch of couples, they had a
couples bridge club.  That was made up of couples who were in their church group, they all
belonged to this Sunday School group that was taught by the minister of the church, and they
were all very good friends socially and business-wise.  They were all businesspeople from town,
and they were quite close.  They seemed to have a lot of fun.  They had more time to do it than
we have nowadays, that's for sure.  At least, it seemed to me, anyway.  It seems they were always
going out someplace.  You know, either to play bridge somewhere, or to a church pot luck supper
or something.  And fortunately, my brother was old enough to babysit with me, which I didn't
particularly care about.  But it didn't matter either.  


JV: So did they trade houses?

JG: Yeah, they'd go different places.  They probably had a regular routine that they followed. 
You always sort of got the idea that they men weren't as crazy about this bridge business as the
women were, but they went along with it and they played.  Because most of them had a mens
group like my father had the Masons that he belonged to, and some of them were Kiwanis, or
Rotary.  They had their outside activities, so they weren't tied up totally socially with the women. 
It was a good balance, I think they did pretty well.  They didn't seem to be too unhappy, as I
remember.  


JV: What did he do with the Masonic Lodge?

JG: Well, they had different degrees that they worked through, they had meetings.  I don't know
whether their meetings were once a month, but the way I remember hearing it was they went
through the chairs.  In other words, there were steps all along up to this point where they became
a Master, and that was the head man, and he'd be the Master of the Lodge for a year, and then
someone who was proceeding up the same route that he took would be the Master the following
year.  They still have Masons, Bob's father was a Mason.  But Robert never was interested, he
never wanted to join.  I don't know why, he just didn't. 


JV: Was your dad ever the Master?

JG: Oh yeah.  And then they had what they called a Consistory, in Buffalo, and they could go - it
cost money - but they could go to the Consistory and get further degrees.  The highest degree
they could go in Masons is a 32nd degree, they called it, and there's an Honorary one after that. 
But 32 degrees is a full Mason.  There are lots of them, but there are also a lot of men who are in
the group or belong to the lodges strictly for social or business purposes that don't go on for the
higher degrees.  It's more of a social thing, I think.  But if you're really interested - and it's a
religious background - that's why the Catholics, a Catholic cannot become a Mason.  The
Catholic Church doesn't allow it.  Masons would, but the Catholic Church doesn't allow it.  That
was one of the sad things when my father died, because I had started going to Eastern Star.  I was
going to go through the chairs in Eastern Star and become the Matron of the Lodge in
Middleport, and my father - men could belong to Eastern Star.  Women could not be Masons, but
men could belong to the Eastern Star.  My father was going to be my Patron, because they had a
Matron, and she had a Patron.  It sometimes was her husband, sometimes it was someone other
than her husband.  But Robert wasn't a Mason, so he couldn't do it.  But my father could and was
going to but he died before he got that far.  So I sort of lost interest and I didn't go after that.


JV: What were your parents' personalities like?

JG: My father was kind of quiet and reserved.  He had a good sense of humor, but he was pretty
reserved.  My mother could be sort of a spitfire.  She knew what she wanted, and she usually got
it.  But she wasn't - what do I want to call it?  I'm thinking spendthrift, that isn't exactly the word
I want, but she was frugal.  She wasn't afraid to spend money if she wanted it, but she didn't just
go out and spend money to spend money.  And like I told you in that part that I wrote, my father -
all these women that my mother used to run around with would go into Buffalo.  Somebody
either would take them or somebody would drive.  A whole bunch of them would go into Buffalo
to shop because they had all these big stores, and a lot more stylish clothes and furniture and all
that stuff.  And they'd go into Buffalo to shop, and my father - well, he wouldn't let her go.  I
mean, she could go, but she couldn't buy anything in Buffalo because he said that people in
Lockport supported him, and that's how we lived because of the people in Lockport and therefore
they should spend their money in Lockport, not in Buffalo.  And he was very definite about it. 
She never did, she agreed with him.  She never put up any fuss.  She'd go along with them, but
she didn't buy anything.  Oh, she might pick out some little thing for me or something, but not
anything, no big shopping.  But she wasn't a great shopper anyway, she didn't like shopping any
better than I do.


JV: I must have got that from you then.

JG: You don't like to either?  I don't like to at all.  I'd much rather shop from a catalog.  Which
is what I do.  I won't go in the store anymore at all.  In the first place, it's too hard for me to see
the stuff, I can't tell where I'm going, I can't find anything, and there's just so much stuff in there
to look through.  Besides which, when I go in the store, if I go with anybody and they lose me or
I lose them, I can't tell where they are because they'll holler. "Mom, I'm over here," but I don't
know where they're hollering from because I can't tell from my hearing because I don't have any
hearing in my left ear.  So I don't know where the heck they are. (Laughs) And I stand there and
look sort of stupid, I guess.  "Over here, Mom.  Behind you."  And if I'm in with a rack of
clothes, I can't see over the darned rack of clothes.  One more reason for the catalogs.


JV: How did World War I affect your family? Or did it, in any way?  It was before you were
born, but....

JG: My father didn't have to go because he was a father.  That's about all I ever heard about it. 
He did well in the economy just like everybody else did, like we did in the Second World War.  I
guess they did the same thing in World War I.  But he never went.  I guess he would have,
probably, if they hadn't been married.


JV: He was the right age.

JG: That war started, what, 1914?  I wonder if they knew that this was going to come about,
maybe that's why they got married and she got pregnant.  I never thought of that, I never gave
that a thought until now.  Because during World War II that's why a lot of the guys got married
and had families. 


JV: What year was your brother born?

JG: '14, in August.  I never gave that a thought.  But I don't think my father would have minded
going, I really don't know.  Never thought of it, like I said.  


JV: So when you were born, your brother was about 5 or 6...

JG: Yeah, six.


JV: And... What was your dad doing at that time?  What were the conditions in your family at
that time?

JG: You mean financially?


JV: Financially, health-wise, that sort of thing.

JG: I think they were very good.  They had enough money.  They weren't well to do or anything,
they had plenty of money to do what they wanted to do and what they needed to do.  If my
mother needed something for the house, she got it.  I don't know that I was exactly a planned
baby.  My mother wasn't too well, she was always quite slight and slender before I was born. 
But she put on a lot of weight after I was born, and she never lost it.  It was a little bit difficult for
her to get around, though, and she did pretty well.  She did a lot of work in the garden.  She loved
roses and tulips, and she had a lot of them.  She did all of the gardening.  She'd cut the grass
when we lived on Regent Street, she liked to do that.  This is when they were socially active, and
that's when I can remember.  See, I was born in '20, of course, that was after the war, and that's
when they were active socially.  And that went on until into the '30s.  Then after, well the
Depression really hit in '29, but they really didn't feel it too much until '30, and then everything
just went to pieces when the store burned. When the store burned, I had, I don't know whether it
was chicken pox - it was one if the kids diseases, anyway - and there was a big fight because I
wanted to go and it was early in the morning, everybody wanted to go and see the fire.  So they
took me, and my mother was having a fit because I shouldn't be going out of the house, but
anyway, I went to the fire.  After the fire, he moved across the street and bought second had
ovens and stuff.  Then they rebuilt the building he was in, he didn't own the building, but they
rebuilt it, so he had to buy all new furniture and all new equipment and fixtures, and it was just
too much.  That was at the height of the Depression, so he lost it.


JV: Had no insurance?

JG: Oh, he had insurance, but it didn't cover all the new stuff that he had to buy.  So when the
banks started hurting, they landed on everybody that owed them money, and fortunately they
were able to save the house that we lived in that they had bought in 1924 because the man who
had the mortgage on the house was an individual, a dentist in town, the bank didn't have that
mortgage, so he just let them keep it, he didn't foreclose on it.  So they moved out of the house
and rented it and paid the mortgage, so they were able to keep it.  But that's the only thing he was
able to save out of the whole mess.  It was pretty rough on him.


JV: How did the bakery burn?

JG: They don't really know.  It was probably an electrical short or something.  I think the ovens
were gas, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't really know what started it.  It was pretty much gutted,
but it was an old building, old equipment.  It was probably pretty brittle.


JV: Now, how old were you when your brother died?

JG: 13, almost.  He died, he was killed on the 16th or 19th of May, and he would have been 19 in
August and I was 13 in July.  


JV: You told me a little bit about how you got along.  It was your regular normal brother/sister
relationship?

JG: Yeah, we really didn't have an awful lot to do with each other because being that much older,
by the time I got 5 and 6, he was 12 and 13, and he'd be out playing at night.  The only thing I
remember is my mother telling me at one point that he used to - we'd go out after supper in the
springtime and in the summer - we had streetlights - and we'd play kick the can or hide and seek. 
There was always a few little things that went on that maybe shouldn't have gone on as far as
kids that age are concerned.  He used to keep pretty good track of me.  I never knew it.  But he'd
watch what went on, and he knew where I was all the time.  If I was over on the next street...  I
can remember one night, a couple of the kids going in one of the garages, and I can remember
coming home and telling my mother about it.  I don't know whether it was then that she told me
or later, but she said my brother kept pretty good track of me and about where I was.  Probably if
I'd been getting into any trouble, either he would have let my mother know about it, or he would
have let me know.  So I guess I was pretty safe.


JV: Pretty protective of you.

JG: Yeah.  Only problem is he should have lived longer.  I'd have been better of maybe.
(Laughs.)


JV: Better off?

JG: Yeah, well, I mean, going through high school, that was terrible.  I probably needed a lot
more supervising then than I did when I was 10 and 12 years old.  


JV: What did he look like?

JG: He was a good-looking kid.  I think he was more a Chadwick - he looked more like my
mother.  He was very straight.  He played football for a while, but he was really...  Well, I guess
he was proud of the way he looked because he wasn't handsome, but he was a good-looking kid. 
He had very little to do with girls - that I remember, anyway - because he was only 19, and they
didn't so much then.  He had one girlfriend, and she was the daughter of one of the couples that
my mother and father went around with.  It was all sort of, you know, homey like.  But I don't
think he was ever serious about any other girls.  Of course, he wouldn't have told me if he was. 
But I remember the night that he was killed, my mother had three women over there playing
bridge, and he came home on his motorcycle to tell her that he was going up to Niagara Falls. 
And I can remember hanging out the window - there was a window in the living room that was
on this little front porch that we had.  I opened the window and was hanging out talking to him
because I needed - something was going on the next day, and I had 20 cents, I think, and I needed
25.  So I conned him out of a nickel, and he gave it to me.  I can remember after he died - that
was in the days when they had funerals in the home, people were laid out in their caskets at home
- and I had gotten, I don't know whether it was the same nickel, but I owed him that nickel as far
as I was concerned.  And when they brought his casket home, I put the nickel in his hand because
I owed it to him and I didn't to have him go to heaven without that nickel.  I can remember that
very plainly.  And I got very upset with my grandmother because I thought she had moved it.  I
had it up on the mantle by that clock that you have out here, and I went to get it and I couldn't
find it.  I thought she had dusted or something and knocked it off.  But I found it eventually, and
put it in his hand.


JV: So he was killed then going up to Niagara, or coming home from that?

JG: They were on their way home, and apparently when they went around a corner, he must have
hit a stone just right, and it threw him over the handlebars and he hit, well, we called it a
boulevard sign.  It was a directional sign, but it was a good sized one, and he went over the
handlebars and he hit the sign and had a fractured skull. 


JV: Did it kill him immediately, or was he in the hospital?

JG: They think so, they think it did.  We always went on that assumption, that he didn't suffer
very much.


JV: Was he with anybody?

JG: Yeah, I think there were three other guys with him.  I don't know whether he was the first
one around the corner or not, but they saw him go over the handlebars. 


JV: All on motorcycles?

JG: Yeah, they were all....


JV: Do you remember how you found out?

JG: Oh yes.  They called, the Niagara Falls Police called.  We only had one telephone, of course. 
My father went down to answer it, and I heard it, and I can remember him coming back up the
stairs on his hands and knees, crying, and my mother was standing at the top of the stairs.  Of
course, she went completely to pieces because he was her favorite.  He was old enough, you
know, to understand what they were going through as far as him losing the store.  He was a lot
more comfort to her than I ever was.  So she took it pretty rough.  In fact, she had a nervous
breakdown after he died.  She ended up in, oh, it was a rest home - not a regular nursing home,
but it was a rest home - for three or four weeks.  It was a bad time.  And part of the reason it was
a bad time is because she blamed herself because my father did not want him to buy the
motorcycle.  He had said he couldn't have one.  Well, he was 19, and he had an insurance policy
that there was a cash value thing on.  And my mother signed a paper so that he could get cash
value that whatever the cash value on that insurance policy was, and he used that for the down
payment on the motorcycle.  He and my father used to have word at times.  I guess all fathers and
sons do.  So my mother blamed herself, and I think that caused a bit of a split in their relationship
for quite a while.  Mostly, like I said, because she blamed herself for it.  I didn't know that for a
good many years, but I'm sure that that was one of the reasons that she went downhill, because
she was not a happy woman after that, ever.  She never really recovered from losing him.  


JV: How did you take it?

JG: Well, I felt very badly, but I really wasn't that close to him.  I was closer to my father than I
was to my mother, and I could wrap my father around my little finger.  I don't think it really hit
me.  I think probably I missed having a brother more in later years than I did then.  I was
probably just like all these kids today, it was my friends that were the important thing, you know,
and how popular you were with your friends and how they accepted you, all that stuff.  It was
important back then, too.  But I've always felt badly that I didn't have a brother or anyone,
because I was pretty much an only child, even though I was 13, I still had a few years at home. 
Like I said, I got pretty spoiled, as much as they could spoil me.  It's probably a good thing we
had the Depression, or it would have been worse. 



Chapter 4 - Jean's Young Life


JV: We are going to back up a little bit....  What's your earliest memory?  The first thing that you
can think of remembering.

JG: Well, I remember the year I was 5 years old I got a tricycle.  No, maybe I was 6.  I looked a
little older than 5, I guess.  And that was my pride and joy.  I can remember riding it down to the
corner to meet this (giggles), Ollie, we called him, his name was Ollie Olsen.  He was a bachelor,
he lived down the street from us, and all the kids loved him.  He was my special favorite.  And I
always used to ride down to the corner on my tricycle and meet him when he came home from
work.  He walked to work and walk home, and I'd ride home from the corner with him.  I
remember living there, but I don't think that there was anything that was particularly special.  I'd
lived a pretty normal life.  Like I said, I was probably spoiled.  I was sort of a sickly kid, at times,
I had bronchitis and stuff.  I can remember the doctor coming to the house in the middle of the
night several times, they used to do that, believe it or not.  But I think I probably have normal
memories of things that...  Once in a while, different things will pop up that I will remember.  I
can remember my kindergarten teacher.  She was a really nice person, a big, heavy woman.  Miss
Freeman, her name was.  We moved from the house we lived in and I went to Walnut Street
School and she was my Kindergarten teacher, but we moved in the Spring, or sometime during
the Winter or Spring, and I had to finish Kindergarten in another school.  I remember changing
from one school to the other way back then.  We used to have to walk to school, of course.  I
remember going absolutely berzerk once because it was raining and I had to take an umbrella to
school.  It was real windy, and the darn umbrella blew inside out.  And I cried, and cried, and
cried, because I thought my mother would be so angry because I broke the umbrella.  Well, I
really didn't break it, it was the darn wind.  But I remember, I think about things like that.  I
thought it was great, I guess, when we moved up to this other house because it was a lot bigger
house, and a newer house, you know, all that stuff.


JV: What was that house like.

JG: The one we moved into?  It was modern, modern in the 1920s.  It had nice hardwood floors,
and it had what they called gumwood woodwork, which was natural light brown. A big fireplace
with bookcases on each side of the fireplace.  Sizeable yard, garage.  I thought it was pretty
special.  


JV: How big was the house itself, what was in it?  What was the main floor, upstairs and
downstairs like?

JG: Main floor had a big foyer thing in it, with a stairway going up.  Big living room.  Just a little
small entry-like front porch - and the living room took up that one whole side of the house with
the exception of the dining room in the back.  It was a much bigger living room than what most
people had, and my mother just loved that, she thought that was great.  The kitchen and upstairs,
there were three bedrooms and a bathroom.  They were all good sized bedrooms, too.  It had an
attic that we could play in.  The only problem was that you had to go up to the attic through my
brother's bedroom, and that created problems sometimes because my brother did not particularly
care about me walking through his bedroom, you know.  Especially if I had somebody to go up
and play in the attic.  But we managed.  But I was pretty proud to move up there.  There were a
lot of kids around there, it was a new development, and several kids lived on the street.  They
were all that age bracket.  Then there were younger families that built houses and moved there. 
They had little kids, and I could babysit those kids, which I did.  My babysitting experiences
were fairly numerous.  The one I always remember is staying with this one little kid.  They lived
right across the street, he was my favorite, and I stayed with him a whole weekend while his
mother and father went down to the lake for a whole weekend.


JV: How old were you?

JG: Eleven


JV: Eleven?

JG: Yeah, but my mother was right across the street, so...  My mother and this youngster's
mother, she was one of the bridge players, so they knew it was all right.  But I stayed the whole
darn weekend and I earned the big sum of $2 and fifty cents.  That was a lot of money, I tell you. 
If they went to the show at night, you'd get 25 cents or 50 cents sometimes if it was quite late. 
But never any more than that.  That was a lot of money.


JV: What could you do with $2.50 back then?

JG: Oh, lots of things.  You could buy a scarf, or you could go to the store and buy socks, or you
could buy candy.  Oh, you could buy lots of things.  You could go to the movie three or four
times.


JV: How much did a movie cost?

JG: Ten cents.  We used to have - that was before my father lost the store - I would have 25 cents
on Saturday, and we'd go to the movie Saturday afternoon, and then around the corner to the ice
cream place and have a sundae for 15 cents.  The ice cream parlor that we went to was right
down the street from my fathers store, so then I could go to the store and ride home with him. 
Those were great days, I'll tell you.  We thought we had it made.  


JV: What kind of games did you play with your friends then, when you were young, elementary
school?

JG: Oh, sometimes checkers, we didn't have all the games that you have now.  Checkers,
dominoes, those are the two I remember mostly.  Once in a while I would play with my brother. 
We could play cards like rummy.  I didn't know how to play pinocle until I got a lot older.  We'd
have a couple of those walk around the board things.... Uncle Wiggly was one.


JV: What was that?

JG: That was one of those games that you walk around, roll the dice or do something, and walk
around and end up down at his house in the cabbage patch or something.  I don't know.  But it
was a board game.  Mostly we played outside.


JV: What kind of games did you play outside?

JG: Oh, kick the can, and hide-and-go-seek, and hopscotch, ride the bicycle down to the
playground at the school and have to be home before dark.  In the wintertime we went ice
skating.


JV: Where did you go ice skating?

JG: We had a great big pond down at the end of the street.  They flooded a big field, they sort of
dug it out a little bit and flooded it, so that was our skating rink.  We had a big, oh, it was like a -
the only thing I can think of is one of these trailer things they have sometimes for extra school
rooms.  We had one of those that you could go in.  They had a big pot-bellied stove in there, and
that's where we went in to put our skates on and get warm when we got so cold we couldn't
skate anymore.  Fortunately, I was lucky because it was right down at the end of the street, so I
could get home all right and there was always somebody to walk with me.  But you didn't have
to worry then, you could walk home by yourself, you were all right.  So that's what we did.


JV: Lots of games outside and played with neighbors, that sort of thing?

JG: Yeah.


JV: Did you have any pets while you were growing up?

JG: One cat.


JV: One cat, what was his name?

JG: Peep (Pete?)  Yeah, that's the one that my father brought home in his pocket one night.  They
had cats in the bakery to control mice, and this cat had kittens so my father brought one home in
his pocket and my mother had a fit.  But she finally agreed that we keep it, and we had the dumb
thing for 13 or 14 years.


JV: Why didn't she want it?

JG: Too much bother, too messy, get her house dirty.  She was a very meticulous housekeeper,
very.  Nothing was out of place.  And you'd better not leave anything out of place either. 
Another thing I didn't pick - piano lessons.  I did do that.  Not that I ever did much with it, but I
took them, and I practiced.  And then as we got older, we had church activities.  We had a youth
group that was very active.  And that was most of our social stuff until we got to high school. 
But the minister, they had this group, we called it BYU - Baptist Youth Union.  And there were
boys and girls in it, and the minister was the counselor, whatever you want to call him.  We used
to go on picnics and all sorts of stuff.  That was the basis of our social life.  Girl scouts some, but
that didn't last too long.  But we were always - in fact, we all felt very close to that minister, and
he left, oh, I don't know, maybe the first year of high school, somewhere around there.  He left to
go to a church in Rochester, and we used to get a group together and con some parent into taking
us down so we could go to his church in Rochester.  He came down to Ithica from Rochester and
married your grandfather and I.


JV: What was his name?

JG: JD Livingston. Jeffrey David Livingtson.


JV: What did you call him, JD?

JG: Yep.  He was a little short guy, I mean, he was probably 5'5" or 5'6", but he was shorter than
some of the boys who were tall.  And he was real chubby, he had a big potbelly, actually.  But he
was just a real jolly, happy guy.  You could talk to him.  We all loved him.  Well, after all those
years, I was 14 - it was almost 8 years, and I had him come back and marry me.  You know he
was pretty close to us.


JV: Is he the one that presided over the funeral?

JG: My brother's?  Oh yeah, he was there, he was the one.  He didn't have my parents' funerals
because he had gone by then.  In fact, yeah, he was alive, I guess, when they died.  In fact, I can't
remember who the minister was at my mother and father's funeral.  That's terrible to say, but see,
we were gone then.  I didn't live in Lockport when they died, and I didn't go to the Baptist
church anymore, we went to the Methodist Church in Middleport, because that's where we lived
when they lived on the Day Road.  


JV: What kind of chores did you do when you were growing up?  You said your mom was real
meticulous.  What were your responsibilities there in the house?

JG: Both my brother and I had to help with dishes.  We had to keep our rooms cleaned up.  My
brother cut the grass.  I learned to dust. And I learned how to run the cleaner, but I didn't do it
very often.  I just had to keep my room straightened up and take care of my clothes.


JV: Wash your clothes, or just....

JG: No, I helped - in the summertime I would help my mother with the washing because we
didn't do it by hand, she had a washing machine.  But we always hung them outside, and then I'd
have to help her take them down and fold them.  We didn't just take them down off the line and
throw them in a basket.  We took them down off the line and folded them very carefully and put
them in the basket.  Then we would have to bring them in the house.  She would have to sprinkle
them - anything that had to be ironed had to be sprinkled, sit all night long.


JV: Sprinkled?

JG: Sprinkled with water.  Then she would iron them in the morning.  Routine - never changed.


JV: She had a routine that she did?

JG: Oh yes.  


JV: What was her routine?

JG: Monday morning she washed.  Tuesday morning she ironed.  Wednesday morning she
sewed, darned socks. Thursday morning she cleaned upstairs.  Friday morning she cleaned
downstairs.  Saturday morning she got groceries.  In the afternoon she'd play bridge. Or read a
book.  Or work in her garden.  And that was routine.  There was very little deviation.  We ate at
6:30 at night when my father walked in the house.  There wasn't any question of you being there,
you were there, you ate supper.  And I might say I did the same thing with my kids.


JV: So what was your routine, when you were a kid?  What was a typical day like for you?

JG: Well, I was up at 7, 7:30 in the morning.  Sunday mornings I stayed in bed a little bit longer
so my mother and father didn't have to get up and my father would bring the Sunday paper home
and put the funnies on my bed to keep me quiet.  But I was always up fairly early.  When I went
to school, that took care of that.


JV: What did you do at school then.

JG: What do you mean?  I went to school, we came home at noon for lunch, and usually rode my
bicycle.  Didn't have to, because we didn't live that far from school.  But I rode my bicycle, and
we had some homework, I remember we had to do.  But I was always in bed by 8:30, up till I was
a good big kid in high school, then I could stay up longer.  But there wasn't anything to do.  We
were lucky we had a radio, we had an old big battery radio thing, and I used to listen to that. 
They had kids programs on it, and we could listen to that.  But there wasn't that much else on.  I
remember some singers, but I couldn't tell you their names.  Perry Como was one I remember. 
Magazines, we had quite a few, we'd read magazines, go to the library and get books, go to the
movie once a week.  We did do overnights once in a while with kids, if there was something
special going on maybe we'd stay overnight with somebody.  But it wasn't a thing like it is now. 
It was a real special thing that we could do that.  It was really kind of a quiet - I remember trying
to rig up some sort of a communication thing between a kid that - houses were fairly close, I
think the people next door's house was closer than this.


JV: Really?  Closer than about 15, 20 feet?

JG: Gee, I don't know. Now, especially I can't tell.  But the girl who lived next door, we were the
same age.  She had older brothers and sisters, but one of her sisters had a back bedroom, and I
had a back bedroom in our house and we had windows right across from each other.  And I can
remember, I was trying to work out some thing where we could pull things back and forth on a
string.  We had it working for a while, but we didn't get along very well, we fought an awful lot,
so that didn't last very long.  But it was quite a thing when we finally did get it going.  We'd just
raise the window and sit there and talk out the window if were on good terms.  Like I said, most
of the time we weren't on very good terms.  


JV: Did you have any special friends there?

JG: Yeah, we had our little clique.  There were about six of us that were pretty good friends, and
we didn't have too much to do with everybody else, we thought we were it.  We just sort of
ignored other people.


JV: Were you what would be considered the popular crowd?

JG: Yeah, we were the "in" group.  Now this is when I was in grade school, because when I went
to high school everything changed because we moved, and I ended up pretty much with an
entirely different group of kids.  And I'm really not too sure why, because a lot of them couldn't
walk to school, they lived a lot farther out East Avenue than I did.  I lived fairly close to
downtown, so I could walk to school.  But I got in with an entirely different group of kids.  We
were a little....  We weren't fast and bad, but we figured we were pretty good, and the "in" kids
that knew what was going on.


JV:  We talked a little bit yesterday about the church that you went to.  Tell me a little bit about
the church - it was a Baptist church?

JG: It was a Baptist church.  We were what they called the Northern Baptist Convention, much
different than the Southern Baptists.  There was no revivalist, or anything like that.  It was just
straight and basic religious church services, and the kids were all involved in Sunday School.  It
was basically the same thing you do.  I told you about that group my parents were in.  Your
parents aren't in a couple's group, or rather they do have couples groups in the younger kids,
don't they?  You and Jeff went to young couples....


JV: Like a singles...?

JG: You know, well these people were young then.  They were only in their 30s, early 40s.  There
was just the one Baptist church in town, I'm pretty sure there was only one.  But it was a good
sized congregation, and it was an old church, an old building, and shortly after I went away to
school they built a new one, and I didn't think it was anywhere near as the old one, but the old
one was about ready to fall down, so they had to do something.  And it is still a very active-going
congregation.  I have several friends who go there, step-sister(?).  What else did you want to
know about it?  I think we got a good basis in Christianity, and they sponsored a Scout group for
kids, and always were putting on pot luck suppers for people in the church and the whole bit.  So
I would call it a very active church.


JV: So it wasn't just like you went to church on Sunday and that was it.  

JG: Nope.


JV: What was the church service like?  Was it a 2 hour sermon, or....

JG: No, you went in and there was an organ pew, and scripture reading, and announcements, and
the choir.  They had a good, active choir.  And they always had a children's sermon.


JV: What's that?

JG: The minister would talk strictly to the children.  It was a story for them.  And then they went
out just before the adult sermon, and they had their pre-Sunday School group.  Then when church
was over, there was a regular hour Sunday School group that they went to, too.  They took care of
the kids.  They didn't have nurseries then, and you didn't see as many young people with tiny
babies in church.  But they had primary and then I think they started probably with 3- and 4-year-
olds.  They didn't have any nurseries.  But they had 3- and 4-years old and then they went
according to grade schools.  Whatever grade school you were in, you were the same year in
Sunday School.  About the same idea as yours.


JV: So when you were a kid, you didn't have to sit through the long sermon.

JG: Nope, the kids used to always after the children's sermon the kids always used to gather in
the back of the church and march around the church on their way out so everybody could see
them.  Everybody liked that.


JV: Did they young kids have activities during the week?

JG: We had Wednesday afternoon church, we called it church school.  We had, from the time we
were in 4th or 5th grade I think we were excused from school at 1:30 or 2:00 and we walked to
whatever church we belonged to, because most of the churches had the church school.  And that
was Wednesday afternoon until 3:30 or 4:00, just like school was.  You didn't have to go, you
know, if your parents didn't belong to a church you didn't have to go to religious school, they
kept them in school.  But if your parents wanted you to, you did.


JV: What did you do there?

JG: It was mostly Bible stories, Bible study that they did.  We used to make notebooks and
things, cut out pictures and make notebooks with religious pictures and tell what the pictures
were.  Kids activities.  


JV: More fun stuff than what Sunday was. 

JG: Yeah.  It was religion based, that's what the idea was.  And that picked up some kids who
maybe didn't go to Sunday School.  A lot of people would belong to the church and not
necessarily go to church on Sunday.  They didn't feel that you had to go to church to be a good
Christian, and I don't either.  It's up to you if you want to go to church.  You can be just as good
a Christian if you never set foot inside a church.  But they.... now what was my line of thought?  I
don't remember.


JV: It would pick up some kids who didn't necessarily go to church on Sunday.

JG: Oh yeah, because some of the kids would beg to go, and they would take a child in church
school whether they belonged to the church or not.  But it was strictly a family/parent choice,
what they did.  I don't think they do it anymore, but it was just a way of life then.  You just
expected it.


JV: Just what everybody did.

JG: Mm hmm.  Everybody did.


JV: What about as a teenager - what did you do as a teenager at church on Sunday?

JG: That's when we belonged to the BYU, that's when the BYU activities got more aggressive
and we did things together and went out on camp-outs.  The minister always went with us. 
Possibly another parent or so.  But that was right from freshman right up through seniors in high
school that did that.  And we'd go down to the beach and have camp-outs and cookouts, and
we'd go visit other churches.  Just a lot of Christian oriented things.  The kids could choose.  If
they had something particular that they wanted to do, they expressed what they wanted to do and
we'd work on it and do it.  It was really a good deal for kids.  I think it really helped keep a lot of
kids out of trouble.  A lot of the activities that we got into would be during the week, especially
during the summer.  But there was always the Sunday night activity after Sunday dinner, so they
always had the regular.  And I remember - you know what the "mispah"is?


JV: No.

JG: After we got through with the BYU meeting and we were going to break up, we'd all stand
around in the circle, and that was the "mispah".  We'd say "God...."  Oh dear, now I can't
remember.  I thought I was so smart.  "The Lord watch over me until we meet again."  Oh, we'd
sing, I guess. (Singing:) "Till we meet, till we meet again. God be with you till we meet again."


JV: Yeah, that's the hymn that we sing in church too, sometimes.

JG: Well, that's what we called the mispah.


JV: How do you spell that?

JG: M-I-S-P-A-H, I think.


JV: Ok, that's what I was thinking.  

JG: Religion is basic.  I mean, you might have different ways of going about it, but it's still basic. 
I think, anyways.  I don't care whether you're Catholic, or Jewish, or what you are.  It's a feeling,
and a belief in something greater than you are.  If you have that, you're all right, I mean, you can
exist and get through all the difficulties in life, I think.  If you don't have that, you're sort of lost. 
I really believe that.  


JV: So you moved right before high school, right?  Did you keep in touch with all your old
friends, or did they....?

JG: Pretty much.  It wasn't that big a school system, so we were all pretty much together and in a
lot of classes together.  You weren't always with all of your friends in class, but basically through
the day you did something with kids that you knew, and kids that you didn't know.  But that's the
way you kept in touch with people.  We always went.....  No, I can't remember whether the kids
used to bring.... I don't think high school kids brought lunches.  They'd either go.... there was
sort of a cafeteria thing across the street.  You could go there and get your lunch, or I always
went home because I lived close enough.  But they didn't have bussing and stuff for kids that
lived out of town.  But there wasn't any school cafeteria or anything, at least, when I was in
school.  Some of the kids used to even go over to my father's restaurant and eat sometimes. 
Although, like I said, we didn't have that much money, and now that I think back, some of the
country kids used to bring their lunches.  We had these big study halls, and everybody would go
in the study hall and eat their lunch.  Then they could go out after they ate and toot around
downtown for a while, because they school is right in the middle of downtown, and the YMCA
was right across the street.  So there were plenty of places to go, so long as you go back by the
time the bell rang.  


JV: After you moved, how long did it take before you made you're new friends, before you got in
with your new friends?

JG: Oh, I pretty much knew all of the kids through different activities.  Some of them were
church, but we could belong to the Y when we were still in junior high school, and we had
YMCA and YWCA activities so that we knew a whole bunch of kids too.  And in high school,
we just sort of drifted sometimes into different groups.  A lot of the groups, I think, it tended to
go with whatever courses you took.  Because kids who were in business courses tended to group
together, and college entrance kids grouped together, mostly because they had classes together.  I
think, pretty much, that all the kids that I went with and that were a bunch of kids together were
all college entrance kids.  


JV: That's what courses you took?  College entrance?

JG: Yep.  They had homemaking, and business, and typing.  They boys had shop, a lot of manual
training.  But college entrance was the way it is now.  English and history and math and science. 
All four years.  You know what it's like.  And really, I started at one point and took typing for a
while, but I didn't last doing it.  The other stuff took up too much of my time, and I just didn't
have time for it.  Because if you took typing, then you gave up one of your study halls, and I
didn't particularly like that.  So I was just straight college entrance.


JV: What was a typical day in high school like?

JG: It was like it is now, I guess.  We'd have 20 minutes til 9:00 or so, until 20 to 12:00, and then
12:30 to 3:30. I think they were probably a little bit longer than they are now, because we had
usually two study halls per day.  I didn't have an awful lot of homework, until I got into Latin. 
Freshman and Sophomores didn't have an awful lot of homework.  Juniors and Seniors did, but
you see, we were right downtown, and we didn't have any athletic opportunities because there
wasn't any place for a football field.  You had to trapse all the way to the other end of town to one
of the elementary schools that had land around it where they could play ball.  We did have a gym,
but it was most impractical, so we didn't do an awful lot of phys ed either.  They just didn't have
an awful lot of room.  And that's where I went the whole....  The auditorium was so small we
couldn't graduate from the high school, there was a big movie theater next door and that's where
we had graduation, in a movie theater.


JV: How many kids were in your graduating class?

JG: I knew you were going to ask me that, and I can't honestly tell you.  I've still got my
yearbook. I would say there were about 120.  And that's very generous, I'm not so sure it was
that much, really.  I'm trying to think how many rows we used to take up in the theater.  That's a
very generous estimate, I think.  I'll tell you someday when I get out all of my things that are in
storage, I'll drag out my forum, we used to call it, and we'll see how many kids are in there.


JV: How many classes did you have per day, 5, 6?

JG: They were 45 or 50 minutes, and we had English and history and math and language - either
Spanish, or French - oh, I had French and Latin both, so I took 5.  English, history, math, Latin,
and French. That's why I didn't do very well in typing, I didn't have time.


JV: Then 2 study halls....  That would be nice.  Today they don't normally give them study halls. 
You can sign up for one if you want it, but....

JG: Can you get out early if you don't have study halls?  What do you do?


JV: They have 7 academic classes, a lot of kids.

JG: Well, then, how do you sign up for a study hall if you have 7 classes?


JV: You don't, you just don't have one.

JG: But I thought you said you could sign up for a study hall.


JV: You could if you wanted to?

JG: But how would you get it in, that's what I mean.


JV: Well, you don't have to take 7, you could take 6 academic ones and then a study hall.

JG: Ok, well, I guess that's what I meant, cuz I said we could take typing, and then some of those
days we'd have phys ed so that would take one of those study halls once a week or twice a week. 
And then we'd have chorus - sometimes that was after school, sometimes it was during school. 
But they had a pretty active music department, we had band, and orchestra, and chorus.  What
else did we have?  They had a football team, and a basketball team.


JV: How would their teams.... Their football and basketball teams and that, were they pretty
good?

JG: Oh, I guess we thought they were pretty good.  We always supported all the games - of
course, that was just a good excuse to get out, you know, and go someplace or do something.
(Sharon gave note to mom about something....) Oh, yeah, we're a little ahead of us.  I was talking
about one of the horses we had, remember you asked me about pets yesterday?  The only one I
had when I was a kid was the cat, but this is a kid that your mother and those kids had, the horse.


JV: Ok, we'll talk about her maybe tomorrow.  So the group of your friends that you hung out
with - they were mostly from your class, not really from church anymore, or did you hang out
with both there?

JG: Yeah, some of the kids were in BYU with and in church, we were not too close and active
with in school.  It was just a different association, that's all.  And the kids that I started running
around with in high school were, well, we kinda thought we were the in group, you know?  Some
of the kids - there was a new development outside of town.  It was like all these developments
outside of town now that they're building. Well, we didn't have those then, this was a fairly new
concept, and some of these kids that I went around with lived out in this new development, and
they sorta had the idea that they were a little bit farther up on the social scale than some of the
other kids.  One of my - well, we must have been fairly good friends because we still keep in
touch, and in fact I talked to her not too long ago.  Her father was the guidance counselor in high
school.  So I had a varied group of friends, really, it's a wonder the good, normal kids didn't
ditch me, because my brother never would have put up with it, I'm sure, if he'd been alive when I
was in high school.


JV: Put up with what?

JG: Me!  And the way I was running around.


JV: So what did you do in high school that was so....

JG: Nothing, nothing bad.  We just had the idea that we were pretty good, you know?  And
probably the only reason that our parents didn't get totally disillusioned with us was because
there wasn't so many things that we could insist on getting involved in.  There was just no way
we could go running around at night and go places because in the first place, people couldn't
afford to go trapsing around getting kids.  And that was a new - it just wasn't heard of then.  But
we weren't a bad bunch of kids, it wasn't that.  We just kind of thought we were pretty good,
that's all.  But a lot of those kids - the word used to be the we were "boy crazy," and some of the
kids in that bunch were a lot more boy crazy than other ones.  And that was what my mother
objected to more than anything, she didn't like that idea.


JV: The boy craziness?

JG: Yeah.  And she kept pretty good tabs on me.  She would always let me have the kids there at
our house, even though it was pretty cramped.  But we'd have the kids there and do things at our
house rather than letting me go somewhere else.


JV: What did you do when you got together.

JG: Talked about boys, chased after boys.  Went to watch the football practice, hung out at the -
there was an ice cream parlor and soda bar across the road from school, and that was the hangout
after school.  And all the basketball players and the football players, some of them worked there
and some of them just hung out there so that's where we were most of the time.  And every once
in a while my mother would put her foot down and I had to go home from school.  But the other
part was that my father, for a couple years during my high school escapades, he opened another
store - on a very small scale, he did all the work himself, the baking and everything - but that too
was right across from the high school.  So he could sort of keep an eye on me.  And if he
couldn't, he knew people that could.  I never really got in any trouble or anything.  My junior
year in high school I started going with a college kid, so that pretty much solved the problem as
far as my chasing boys and stuff was concerned because he was in the University of Rochester,
and his parents had both died, and he had a guardian in Rochester.  He went to the University for
two years, then he decided he didn't want to go any more, he wasn't getting anyplace.  He felt he
had - one of my girlfriends' brothers was his fraternity brother, and he came up and spent a
Christmas at their house.  And there was Christmas dance, a girl reserve dance, and I didn't have
anybody to go with because the guy that I had asked to go backed out at the last minute.  And so
Dorothy got this bright idea that - her brother went with a girl who was a senior, no - she was
away at school but they had been high school sweethearts, and they were gonna go to this dance
just for the heck of it.  And Dorothy went with a boy, so she was gonna go.  So she cooks up this
deal that I would go to this dance with Harry, or Harry would go with me.  And so we went
together from then on until I went into training.  And for a year or so when I was in training I
went with him.


JV: So Harry, what was his last name?

JG: Wardell.  And the reason he came to Lockport was because he was interested in YMCA
work, and he got a job working at the Y, and until he got that job, and enough so he could live by
himself, he lived at our house.  (My mother had said he could stay there, and my father had six
kids.  But my mother said... (tape cut off)


JV: Ok, now why was he staying at your house again?

JG: Because my mother had said he could stay there until he could find someplace to stay, and he
just sort of kept on staying, and that's when my father didn't like the idea.  She just said, well, at
least we know where she is, let's cool it for a bit.  It's when she said "Familiarity breeds
contempt, and maybe it will work."  And it did, eventually, but I went with him for a long time
after that.


JV: Now, tell me, what kind of things did you like to do together?

JG: We played golf and bridge.


JV: Golf and bridge. (Laughs)

JG: That was really about the main thing because, well, he didn't have any money to do anything,
and what money he did have he spent on golf.  Which was fine, because he had a little old Model
A Ford, and there was a public course between Lockport and Middleport, and we'd drive down
there.  He did a good job of teaching me how to play golf.  I did pretty well for a while.  Too bad
I didn't keep it up, but if you don't go with the right people, you don't keep it up.  Besides, when
I went in training, I didn't have time anyway.  There was just no way I could have played then. 
But he stayed in Lockport and worked at the Y, and he ended up going to Springfield College,
which is where Bampi Gould went, and went into Y work and he ended up in Concord.  


JV: And married....

JG: And married - I always said she was a back door cousin somewhere along the way.


JV: Third cousin of yours, not of his.

JG: Yeah.


JV: Now, tell me again about his 80th birthday?

JG: Oh, he had an 80th birthday a couple years ago, and Carol called and wanted all of his friends
to send him a birthday card and make him realize he was 80 years old.  So he called me
afterwards and told me of all the cards he'd gotten, and how good it was.  And he played golf, 9
holes walking and 9 holes in the cart.  But he's pretty proud of the fact that he plays 18 holes of
golf 2-3 times a week, at 82. And I think it's pretty good, too.


JV: Now, what broke you guys up?

JG: Robert.  And a guy that I went with in Rochester, too, but it was really Robert.  


JV: What about him?  Did you break up with him because of Robert, or....

JG: Yes.  I fell in love with Robert the minute I saw him.  In fact, I fell in love before I saw him,
because Lucy Gould Weaver had a picture, his graduation picture when he graduated from the
accounting school at Bentley.  She had that when she came in training.  No, he sent it to her when
we were in training, and that's when I fell in love with him.  And then I met him.  He used to
come to Rochester, - he was working in New England, in Connecticut at the time, or Boston at
first, and then Connecticut - and he'd come home.  He'd drive home on the weekend to Geneva
to see his parents, and his parents were very close to Lucy because her mother died in childbirth,
and Grandpa's mother and father kept her for different times when she was real small because
her father had to farm her out to relatives because he worked to support her, but until he
remarried, she just sort of went around with different members of the family.  So he'd come up to
Geneva to see his parents, and they'd drive up to Rochester to see Lucy.  And that's how I got to
meet him.  And then we got so when we knew Robert was coming, Lucy wouldn't be there and I
would, so it worked out real well.  And that was my meeting Robert.


JV: Ok, we'll get more into that later.  Tell me about your first love again, because that was cut
off.  Your first kiss.

JG: Well it was my sophomore year in high school, it was just one of those... He was a real
loveable guy, all the girls liked him, and he went with a dozen different girls all through high
school, they were all crazy about him.  It was just one of those high school crushes, and the first
real serious one I think everybody kind of remembers.  Even though it didn't really mean
anything, but we thought it did at the time.  It was different than the crushes we used to have, and
I always called him my first love.


JV: What was his name?

JG: Bill Lloyd.  He married a nurse, and they ended up in Lockport.  She took over my job
working for Dr. Hannah when I quit back in 1968, or somewhere around there.  '67, I guess it
was, because I quit working because we couldn't leave Bampi alone anymore.  You knew Bampi
lived with us - or maybe you didn't - after Bob's mother died, he came up and lived with us from
1960 until '68 when he died.  And he was real good, you know, up until '67, and then he got very
senile, and we couldn't leave him alone, so I quit working and stayed home.  That's when Helen
took over my job.  And she worked for him 'til he retired, and she retired.  I had always kept in
touch with him.  They retired in North Carolina, so when we'd go down to David's I'd call him
and talk to him.


JV: Give him a call, talk to an old boyfriend....

JG: It was interesting, and funny strange, because Bonnie did a teaching project when she was at
UT(?), and she taught at an elementary school in a little small town outside of Knoxville.  And
one of the teachers that she was involved with, her name was Lloyd.  And Bonnie got talking to
her, and she asked her where she was from, and she came from "some little small town up in
New York, around Buffalo," she thought it was.  And sure enough, that's where it was.  Her
husband is a lawyer in Knoxville, and he also is on the UT teaching faculty.  So I've never met
him, but apparently they go back and forth between...  Bill and his wife lived in, oh,
Hendersonville, because it's just south of Ashville, and that is close to this school winter camp
that Carol went to in the last semester in February.  I haven't seen them at all since Helen died. 
Now, I'm sort of mixed up, aren't I?


JV: Now what was the relation, there, was that their son?

JG: Yeah, the lawyer was their son.  And I did know that they had a son, but I never thought
about it until she ran into his wife.  They got a big kick out of it.  In fact, I got sort of a kick out
of it because this Mrs. Lloyd, the teacher, told Bonnie that they had gone to Hendersonville for a
weekend to see them and she told her father-in-law that she had run into the daughter of one of
his old girlfriends.  And she said I don't think his new wife was too happy about it.


JV: His new wife?

JG: Yeah, well, this is after he'd married.  Helen had died, you see, a couple three years ago. 
Helen and I were good friends.  That part was all right.  But this new wife didn't particularly care
about bringing up his old girlfriends.  Who was a widow, incidentally.


JV: That's funny.

JG: I got quite a kick out of it.


JV: So what kind of music did you listen to in high school?

JG: One of the dances was the Charleston.  What did they call the other dancing?  I can waltz,
and that was about it.  I wasn't one of these jivey guys, I could not do it, but a lot of the kids were
into that.  And some of them were good, I just didn't have the rhythm to do it.  So we went to
dancing school, and we would have ballroom dancing afterwards, but I never got into any of the -
and I can't tell you what we used to call it - jive was one of them.


JV: Was it big band music?

JG: Perry Como was one that I remember that I particularly liked.  In a little while I'll think of a
whole bunch of them, but right now I can't think of any of them.  But we used to listen to them a
lot on the radio.  And Robert had records of all the big bands, you know, the huge big records
and the record player.  


JV: Do you still have them?

JG: David's got them.  I don't know that you can even get record players to play them anymore.


JV: Probably not, but there are still ones around.

JG: They were Robert's pride and joy.  In fact, he kept all of those, and he had a stereo record
player.  It was a combination radio/record player thing.  And when we even moved up to New
Hampshire, he used to sit in his little room and play those records.  Yeah, he loved those old
records.  But he wasn't much of a dancer either, he didn't like to dance.  We'd go to some of the
dances, like that one I'd told you about, but he never really went for the dancing end of it.  He
just went for the social.  


JV: I can see that.

JG: A lot of the kids were really into the dancing.  I don't know why, I just didn't have that much
rhythm.  I still don't, I guess.


JV: What kind of extra curricular activities did you have outside of your regular classes?

JG: Well, I told you the YW group, that was called Girl Reserves.  YWCA stuff, Young
Women's Christian Association, and the YM is Young Men's Christian Association.  And the
church group.  We didn't have any girl's sports, particularly.  We still rode bicycles when we
were older kids.  We'd get together and go on bike rides.  But I won't even say we were really
very physically active kids, not like they are today playing soccer.  We played tennis some, we
had several tennis courts around that we could play tennis.  Did that.  Swimming - the YMCA
had a swimming pool, and they'd let the girls use it once a week.  We always did that.  In the
summertime, we'd go down to the lake.  Summers my mother used to chaperone a bunch of us,
mostly these kids that I banged around with in high school.  And we'd go down to the lake for a
couple weeks, rent a cottage, and she'd go down and chaperone us.


JV: What lake?

JG: Ontario.  It was just a short distance, 10, 15, 18 miles from home.  


JV: Did you have any other hobbies or anything that you were involved in in high school?  Just
hanging out with friends?

JG: No, not really.  They tried to get us to sew, but I wasn't that interested in sewing.  I was just
interested in being social, I guess.  (Laughs)  Maybe that's why I don't like to do it anymore, I did
too much of it when I was a kid.


JV: Did you have any part time jobs?

JG: I worked for my....  Well, there wasn't any part time jobs then for kids.  There were so darn
many people out of work that kids couldn't get jobs. I worked for my father some in the
restaurant in the bakery thing, but that's about all.  Babysat, but that's about all.  I never worked
in any stores or anything.


JV: So your source of income was babysitting, or you just didn't have any....?

JG: Yeah, we didn't spend much money.  I'm trying to think what my father did before he started
working for Harrison's, I think that was in late '38 or '39.  He worked as a postal rural route
carrier for a while, but all the time through training I had very little money.  The only spending
money I'd have would be every once in a while my mother would scrounge a dollar or so from
grocery money and send me a dollar in the letter.  We just got along without it, you know? 
Actually, when we were in training, we didn't have time to spend any money anyway.  And you
could ride a bus for a nickel.  So we really didn't need that much money.  It's a good thing,
because there just wasn't that much money around.  And that's another reason, as far as hobbies
were concerned, anything that you did could be costly.  Some of the kids took paining lessons,
and I never could.  After my father lost the store, I couldn't take music lessons anymore because
we just didn't have the money.  So we had to make our own fun.


JV: Taught you to be frugal.

JG: Yeah, it just wasn't there.  Some of the kids had a little bit more than others, but they never
seemed to lord it over us or anything.  Some of the kids' fathers had regular jobs, like the one
friend I had, her father was the guidance counselor.  But a lot of the kids, their parents were in
business, and business was really slow, and they had to cut lots of corners.  But I don't think it
hurt any of us, really, we've all pretty much survived.  The one girl whose father was the
guidance counselor is the one I told you we still keep in touch, and she played the piano.  The
two of us took from the same teacher, and she was really good.  She could sit down at a piece of
music and get to know the rhythm, the time, and the whole thing.  In fact, she played the organ
for Linda's wedding.  We had the organ at the house then, and she played the organ for Linda's
wedding reception in our house, all during the reception.  And she's kept up with that.  She's into
computers now too.  She has one son who's a doctor, and he updated his computer, and he gave
his old one to his mother, and so she, I guess she's e-mailing stuff now.  Their name is Hare, her
husband is still living.  He's totally deaf, but he's still living, so their computer name or their
whatever address is "dnbrabbit," because their name is Hare.  So, that's about my..... I probably
could think of lots of interesting things, but right now I can't think of any in particular.


JV: What kind of rules and restrictions did your parents have for you when you were in high
school that you could and couldn't do?

JG: I had to be home by a certain time, and I'd better be there.


JV: What time?

JG: Well, unless I was at the Y or someplace where there was a meeting of some sort, and there
was somebody to come home with, I had to be home before dark.  And I can't remember what
year we started having daylight savings time, but there wasn't any daylight savings time then.  So
it got dark, and I couldn't be out after dark unless I was some place.  And then either there would
be a bunch of us walk home or they would come get me.  We did have a car, but we didn't have
much money to buy gas, so....  But I've known them to walk someplace to pick me up if I was
going to be alone.  But I would say they were fairly strict.  They didn't allow any bad language,
and I got myself into a lot of trouble at one point because I don't know where I picked it up and I
don't know why, but I started using some pretty nasty language - swearing, is what it was.  And I
got pretty good at it, I'll tell you.  They put their foot down, and I got into a lot of trouble with
that.  Sometimes I'd get in trouble with these boys, wanting to go different places with different
kids, and they just wouldn't let it go.  But the thing that I think sticks out in my mind as much as
anything is when they said no, or that I couldn't do something, that was it.  I mean, it didn't do
me any good to argue, and I finally learned it.  


JV: So when you got in trouble, what did they do to you, what was your punishment?

JG: Well, either I couldn't do something that I wanted to, I couldn't have something that maybe
I'd been planning on.  I was a pretty good sized kid when they were still giving me a good boot
on the tail end.  I can't remember when my last spanking was, but I know I wasn't a little kid.  I
don't think I was spanked after we moved down on East Avenue and I started in high school, I
don't think I ever got spanked then.  But my father had no trouble disciplining me, because I
knew when he was unhappy and didn't like what I was doing, and I just quit.  Not saying I didn't
do it, but I didn't do it for very long.  Put it that way.  He just had a way of looking at me, and I
just knew that I'd better cut it out, you know?


JV: You knew when you were in trouble?

JG: Yeah, I knew when I was in trouble.  


JV: So you had that curfew of dark all the way through high school?

JG: No, although I never was allowed to just go out and ram around at night.  If there was some
activity going on, I could go, like the basketball games or a girl reserve dance or something like
that I could go to.  But not to just go out at night and go to somebody's house or something.  I
didn't, I couldn't.  I was home.  I shouldn't say to go to somebody's house.  If there was
something going on and somebody was having kids at their house, I could do that.  But it had to
be some planned thing.  I just didn't go out to just go out.  






Chapter 5 - Jean's Single Life

And it was very different when I got
away to school, I'll tell you.  It was a very different lifestyle.  It's a good thing we were kept busy
and tired so I didn't have time to do anything.  You couldn't really get into too much trouble
down there because they just kept us too exhausted.  We had too much to do.  And that was
good, what we were there for.  I mean, that was weekends and everything.  We didn't have
Sundays and Saturdays off.  After our preliminary period, we worked either a Sunday morning or
a Sunday afternoon.  Sometimes we might have Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning off, but
that was about as long as you ever got in one stretch.


JV: What was the preliminary period?

JG: Before we got our caps, it was just the preliminary studies and learning about the hospital so
we could get around it.  Just getting the general idea of being in training.  And then, after the
preliminary period, we got our caps and we went on the floors to work.  We had classes part of
the day, and then if we maybe worked from 10:00 in the morning until 1:00 then have classes all
afternoon, it was very different.  Sometimes you worked nights, we'd work 3:00 to 11:00.  But
we never had a whole long weekend.  


JV: So it was almost like on-the-job training, you were working the same time that you were
learning.

JG: Yeah.  We worked on the floors from - we begun in September and somewhere around
January, first part of February, we started working on the floors, right up until the time we
graduated.  We worked on the floors and had classes.   We had one - I don't think we had a
whole month in the summer.  Two weeks, three weeks, that's all.  Holidays, you always had to
work part of the day.


JV: Somebody has to, I guess.

JG: Yep, that was it, they had to staff the floors, and they used the students.  If you were sick and
had to miss any days, you were in the infirmary or anything, all those days had to be made up
before you could officially graduate.  We graduated in June, theoretically, but then we had to stay
and work until 3 years to the day after we started, and then make up any days after that.  Dordy(?)
Felton never missed one day in training, so we graduated in June, and she worked one month, I
mean, worked until July, and then she was through because she had her summer vacation, and so
she didn't take her summer vacation and graduated.  But I had to go until October sometime,
because I had missed that many days, and I couldn't get my black bands until I made up those
days.


JV: That's a lot of days.

JG: We thought it was, I'll tell you, and then end.  But it was a much stricter course than a lot of
them, and some of the schools at that days were even still paying kids for the time they worked in
the hospital.  Not much, but they were paying them a little bit.  We never got paid.


JV: Better than nothing, I guess.

JG: We had to even pay tuition.  That's why I felt so fortunate to be able to go there, because any
other school I could have gone to for less money, but my mother and father, somehow they knew
I wanted to go there, so we did it.  I don't know how they did it, but they did.  


JV: Now, why did you want to go there?  What made you go to Strong Memorial in Rochester?

JG: Because they had such a good reputation.  I think, at that point, I still maybe had hopes of
being able to switch and go into medicine, because I always wanted to be a doctor.  But I
couldn't go to college, because we just didn't have the money.  That's why I wanted to go to a
really good school, and that had an excellent reputation.  That was the reason.


JV: So you were hoping then to be able to go to medical school possibly?

JG: Well I think I gave that up, I don't know exactly when, but I liked nursing enough so it
satisfied me.  Besides which, I would have met Robert and wouldn't have done anything after
that.  


JV: What made you decide to go into nursing or medicine, or what made you like that field?

JG: I don't know, really.  My father always wanted my brother to go to college because he
wanted to be a doctor and never could, and he wanted my brother to.  And my brother had no
such ideas.  He liked machines and doing things with his hands, and he just had no interest in
medicine at all.  And whether that had anything to do with it at all, I don't know.  That could
have had something to do with it, I really don't know.


JV: How did you pay for it?

JG: I don't really remember.  I mean, I knew we had to pay, books and all that stuff.  


JV: But you don't know how?

JG: No, I'm sure they saved it.  I didn't save anything, because I didn't have anything to save. 
They may, like I said, my father had gotten this job at Harrison's, so that was a help, and that was
steady money, so I'm sure they figured out how they could do it, and did it.


JV: So you pretty much went to school or work every day for three years?

JG: I can't remember honestly how much vacation we had in the summer.  A month seems like a
long time, but maybe it was a month, for the first summer and the second summer.  And then the
third one is the one we graduated.  But it was every day, pretty much.


JV: Where did you live?

JG: In the dormitory right across the street from the hospital.  We had some of our classes in the
dormitory, and some of them across the street in the hospital.  And then some of the medical
students' classes were in the hospital area too, in the research areas.  Between the two of them,
we never..... In other schools they would affiliate to different hospitals for different services. 
Like, they would go to a children's hospital for pediatrics.  We had everything right there.  We
didn't even go any place for psychiatry because we had a psych floor in the hospital.  So we
didn't do any affiliating at all, we were there.  For three years, period.  


JV: Who did you room with?

JG: We didn't have roommates.


JV: You didn't?  You had your own apartment?

JG: No.  We had, it was like a dormitory, with corridors, and your closest roommate or friend
was across the hall or next door.  But all the rooms were single.  Sometimes we'd study together,
but really the rooms weren't that big.  We had our own desk, and that's about it.  If you wanted to
study with somebody, somebody had to sit on the bed, or on the floor.  Of course, we had a
library where we could go, but....  We were pretty much there, and did everything right in those
four walls.  It was quite a ways from downtown, so there really wasn't an awful lot we could do
for recreation, either.  Go to a movie once in a while, but there wasn't any movies right around
there, we'd have to go downtown.  Like I said, most of us didn't have enough money to do that. 
So we didn't.  But we really didn't have time to do an awful lot of stuff, because they really kept
us hopping.


JV: Did you all have a shared bathroom, like, everybody on the floor had the same....

JG: Yep, I think there were three or for lavatory stalls.  We had our own sink and medicine
cabinet in our room, but the bathtubs and showers and lavatories were in this one big room.  


JV: Did you become pretty close with the people you roomed with?

JG: Yeah. Lucy and Dordy(?) and I were....  Lucy was friendly with different kids, but Dordy and
I were the closest, I think.  And I think probably we are the only ones who have remained that
close as actual classmates. 


JV: Did you meet them there?

JG: Yeah.  I didn't know either one of them until I went to school.  Dordy was from Rochester,
and Lucy was from up north, in Polaski.


JV: From where?

JG: Polaski, New York - it's up in Watertown, way up in the northern part of New York.  So
we've been friends for a long time.  1938, nigh to 50 years - no, 60 years!  Because we went there
in September in 1938.  Yep, it's a long time.


JV: Were there any clubs that you belonged to there in college?

JG: (shakes her head)


JV: No time for clubs?  What about church, did you have time to go to church, because you had
to work?

JG: Very seldom. If we worked in the morning, we went to work at 7:00 and worked until 1:00. 
And this minister that I told you about, I can't remember for sure but I think he was still in
Rochester - well, I know he was because he was in Rochester when we got married.  He was still
there, but I didn't even get to his church because it was way downtown.  In fact, it was beyond
downtown, and we just didn't have time.  If we did have Sunday morning off, we had to be back
and have our dinner before 1:00 because we had to go on duty at 1:00 and work until 7:00.  So
there really wasn't much time for anything.  We didn't have much social life.  We did
occasionally, there was a conservatory that trained Baptist ministers, or mostly Baptist, I think it
was.  I can't remember the name of it, but I'll think of it later.  But sometimes we would go out
with some of the guys that went to the.... In fact, Lucy went with two or three of them over there. 
I went with one for a while, but it was all very plutonic stuff because they didn't have much time
either.  There again, people were still feeling the results of the Depression.  It took a long time for
lots of people to get back on their feet, so they didn't have all that much money either, most of
them.  


JV: Were you still dating Harry?

JG: Yeah, he would come down sometimes on a weekend.  We might go out on Saturday night,
or something.  That reminds me of a funny story.  He took me to dinner at a nice restaurant, and I
always thought I loved lobster.  And I don't know why he felt so posh, but anyway we went to
this restaurant and I ordered lobster, and you know how they serve lobster?  They just broil it and
cut it open and broil it and put bread crumbs and stuff on the top?  And it's in the shell, and
you're supposed to just, you know, take these little forks and pick it out.  I didn't know what I
was doing, all I did was eat the bread crumbs.  I left all the good lobster.  (Laughs) It was awful
when I finally learned how to eat lobster.


JV: And he didn't show you how.

JG: No!  I don't know that he knew, to tell you the truth.  That shows you how naive we were
about a lot of things.  


JV: I've never had lobster, so...

JG: Well, I didn't like it that way.  I mean, I just like lobster served in big chunks, and then dip it
in butter.  In fact, I don't think I've ever ordered it that way again.  I just know how other people
liked it, because I'd made it a point to find out.  It's funny how you think about those things
when you're talking about something.  All of a sudden, you'll think of these funny things that
happened. 


JV: Did you guys take any family vacations - I know this was right in the middle of the
Depression, but did you ever get to take any family vacations other than, you know, to your
grandparent's house at Thanksgiving?

JG: Not any really...trips, I believe, because my father was tied up in the restaurant.  It was closed
on Sunday, but a lot of his ordering and getting things ready for the following week he had to do
on Sunday because it was the only time he had.  He had men who worked for him, but he really
couldn't take too much time away from the store.  So that was until '33, well then, the
Depression hit and we didn't have the money to do anything anyway. So the only thing we really
did was we'd - my mother would go down to the lake with us.  We'd rent a cottage, because all 5
kids that went would help pay for it, and sometimes my father would come down and stay.  But I
don't think of any other....  I remember my mother and father going to New York one weekend,
but that was way back in the '20s when I was little.  But for them really to take any extended
trips, I don't think so.  My father always - not always, but for several years he went to Canada for
a couple weeks.  It was way up over around Michigan, up north of Michigan.  He'd go with these
men that were Masons, there were about 5 of them that went up there every year to fish, but they
never took any women, it was all just the men.  And my mother just didn't care that much about
going anyplace, I don't think she ever went, really.  I can't think of any place that they went.  If I
rack my brain, something might come to me, but there sure isn't anything that stood out plainly.  


JV: Maybe it wasn't such a big deal back then.

JG: It wasn't back then.  Really, in fact that trip that they took to New York over a weekend was
a big thing, it was a really big thing, and I remember they brought me back a doll that I just
cherished.  And they had to pay a pretty good amount for it, I would think, in those days.  It had a
china face.  I can't remember what happened to the thing, but my mother was not a person to
save things.  If you didn't use it, you got rid of it.  But I really don't remember anything about
vacations, there just wasn't that much.  We had friends   I take that back.  We did go someplace. 
My father couldn't go, but we had friends that were in this group that they went around with. 
They had a cottage up in Canada, and the man of the family had a jewelry business in Lockport,
so he would take his wife and his daughter up on a weekend and then just leave them there, and
then he'd go up the next weekend.  And we'd gone up there a couple summers, I remember doing
that, and stayed maybe a week or so.


JV: Up in that cottage.

JG: Yeah.  I remember, we did do that.


JV: Just you and your mom?

JG: Yeah.  I don't think my dad ever went up there.  But I hadn't thought of that in years and
years and years.  But that was something that was a real treat.


JV: When you went down to the lake, who did you go with?  You said it was you and 5 other
kids, or you and four other kids. 

JG: Yeah, girls that I went around with.  This was the group that I went around with mostly in
high school.  They all thought my mother was great, she got along real well with all of them.  She
didn't put up with a lot of, I mean, we all behaved ourselves, but she didn't get upset when we
got silly and fooling and laughed and giggled and all that stuff.  She handled that pretty good, and
they thought that was great.  They were always real happy to have my mother chaperone.  The
same thing people say now   the mothers of the other kids would say to her, "How do you stand
them?"  But she'd say, "They don't really bother me."  


JV: What kind of traditions did you have as a family for holidays, birthdays, that kind of thing?

JG: Oh, I always had a birthday cake.  They always made a special big effort at the store. 
Everybody got in on the birthday cake, it was always Angel food, and we had birthday cakes for
everybody for birthdays.  Christmas was usually either at our house or someplace, it was a family
thing.  Other holidays weren't all that great.  I told you Thanksgiving.  I would say it was a very
low-key thing.


JV: Did you have any things that you did, like, when you had the cake, did you have candles and
presents, or was it just a cake and nothing else?

JG: Well, no, I always got presents.  They let me have one birthday party.


JV: A year?

JG: Oh, no.  My mother didn't believe in birthday parties.


JV: How old?

JG: We had a little luncheon, I was probably 10.  Well, I was under 13, because we still lived on
Regent Street, so it was probably my 10th or 12th birthday.  And everybody brought me a present,
and that's the only time, because she just did not believe it was right to ask people to buy
presents for your kid.  


JV: Did you have any Christmas traditions that you did every Christmas?

JG: Yeah, I woke my mother and father up before the crack of dawn.  And I made them all get
up, I can remember that.  My brother wasn't very interested, but we all had to go down and start
opening Christmas presents the minute I started tearing around.


JV: What about a Christmas tree?

JG: We always had a Christmas tree.  Lots of lights.  I can't remember making a big deal about
decorating it, but it was always a pretty tree.  Always had stockings on the mantle, we had a
fireplace where always hung the stockings.  I think we just did stockings before breakfast,
because we carried that tradition on when the kids were little.  We would let them do stockings
and then nothing else until after we had breakfast.  So I think that probably came from both sides
of the family, because Bob was just as strict about that as I was.  And that probably started back
when we were kids.  And it was probably pretty much a tradition with lots of families, I would
think.  Don't remember ever discussing it, particularly, but that would be my guess.  What else
would you have traditions about, things that you did.....?  We had a pretty routine life, but I never
had thought of it especially as tradition.  We always had a big dinner on Sunday, and usually ate
in the dining room.  Well, not a big dinner, but a family dinner, because at night we never could
eat until 6:30 or so when my father got home.  And then it was get the dishes done and I went to
bed during the week.  But Sunday was a family thing.  My mother liked to cook.  She'd usually
but the meat in or whatever the main dish was going to be before we went to church.  She'd put it
in the oven (?) and we'd eat maybe 1, 2:00 when we got home.  Because church never got out
until 1:00, or Sunday School, through at 1:00.  Then you always had the funnies to read, you
know.  We'd get the paper on Sunday morning and couldn't read it until after we went to church,
so we could read the funnies when we got home.  So maybe that's tradition.  


JV: I guess just about anything could be tradition if....

JG: If you do it.  Chicken on Sunday is a tradition in this house.


JV: Yeah, it sure is.  Just if it's something you expect, and it happens all the time.

JG: I think, probably, the reason I say it doesn't seem like tradition maybe is that our life was
much more regulated than yours is today.  I mean, there was no interruptions like around here. 
Like, you've got to stop something and run down to the store for something.  I mean, we lived a
much more regulated life.  That's the reason I really think that probably I don't call it anything
really traditional.  That make sense?


JV: Yeah, that makes sense.  One last thing that I was going to ask you about....  You went to
Baptist churches growing up   is that what churches your parents had gone to when they were
kids too?  Yeah, they had both gone to the Baptist church in Albion, and I think they were
married in the rectory.  I don't think they were married in the church, but they were married in
the rectory in Albion, in the Baptist church.


JV: The rectory?

JG: The minister's home, where he has his study and that.  But we were Baptists until Bob and I
were married, and they had been Presbyterians pretty much.  When then went to Geneva, they
went to the Presbyterian church.  And so he was Presbyterian, and I was Baptist, so we ended up
being Methodist because that's the church that was convenient, that's the church we liked in
Middleport.  David was baptized Presbyterian   no, Methodist, because there was a Methodist
church, and I liked the minister in Lockport.  Sharon was, she was Presbyterian.  She was
christened in the Presbyterian church.  And Linda was Methodist.  So we had all three of them.  I
think that Sharon was christened down in Geneva, at Bob's mother and father's house, if I'm not
mistaken.  But I quit going to the....  Well, I told you we went to the Methodist church when we
went to Middleport, and I just - I was baptized by immersion in the Baptist church when I was
twelve, and I never took my membership out of that church in all those years. Even..... I joined
the Methodist church in Middleport, but just by affirmation of faith, not by taking my letter from
the church.  But when we moved on the Day Road, the minister, whom I really didn't know, and
was not very well liked in Lockport, came down to see me because we still went to the Methodist
church because that's where the kids were brought up in Middleport and they still went to school
in Middleport.  That's where all their friends were.  So we kept that one.  So anyway, this
minister came down and he told me that he felt that as long as I was now in the area that I should
go to the Baptist church and support the Baptist church, and wold not listen to my reason.  So he
told me that he just didn't feel that they should carry me on the rolls of the Baptist church any
more.  That's why I was no longer a Baptist.


JV: Just because you were.....

JG: Because they were carrying me on the rolls as a member of the Baptist church.  Well, as far
as I was concerned, I was a Christian of the Baptist Church.  I did not agree with that at all.  But
he felt that if they were carrying me on that church, I should support it.  


JV: And because you weren't supporting it by going, he felt....

JG: By going there and pledging and giving money to the church, then he didn't want me on the
rolls. Which was not a very Christian thing to do, I didn't think.  Because I told him I was proud
of the fact that I had been baptized in that church.  And I didn't want to change.


JV: So you still felt like you were allied with the Baptist faith?

JG: Yes.


JV: Even though you were going to the church that your family....

JG: Yes.  Because like I told you, you can be a Christian, whatever church you go to.  But he was
not a very popular minister, he didn't last very long, I'll tell you.  I never made a fuss about it,
but I just would not go to that church when we stopped going to the Middleport Methodist
church.  When Bob and I were still in Lockport, we went to the UCC.


JV: The what?

JG: The United Church of Christ.  I liked the minister there, so we went.  And I could very well
have gone back to the Baptist church, but I wouldn't do it.  They didn't want me, I didn't want
them.  It's funny.


JV: Was Grandpa (Bob) like that with the Presbyterian faith, was he still allied with them even
though you started going to the Methodist church?

JG: No, not particularly, I don't think.  Because, I don't know that I ever told you, but at one time
he was going with a Catholic girl, and he took Catholic instructions because he was going to
convert to Catholicism.  And his mother was ready to disown him.  She was not very happy about
that at all.  She had no time for Catholics, or the Catholic religion.  Actually, she didn't have any
time for the people that were Catholic either, if you want the truth.  But that sort of fell through. 
He was a good Christian, he didn't care whether he was Methodist or what he was.  It never
bothered him.  He went along with my feeling as far as the Baptist church was concerned.  He
knew how I felt, and he agreed with me, that it wasn't the proper thing for that minister to do.
No, he was happy wherever he went.  We ended up, when he was up in Veteran's, we went to an
Episcopal church.  And that was high Episcopal too, I mean, they had a priest and the whole bit. 
But it was a chapel right in the Veteran's home, so that one actually was the only place we could
go to church, because I never could have gotten him into town to go to church.  I just wasn't able
to.  But he went down there in his wheelchair, and we went every Sunday.  Eddie or Barbara
would take me up early Sunday morning, and sometimes we even got there early enough to have
breakfast with them.  And then we'd go to church, and I'd have a lunch with him.  I spent the
whole day with him, usually.  But as long as he could go to church, it was ok.  But he was pretty
strict about going to church every Sunday.


JV: Pretty strong Christian?

JG: Yep.  And the kids had to go.  We always sat in the same pew, right down in front, so the
kids had to behave.  I sang in choir for a lot of the years, so Father had all the kids, which is
probably just as well because they behaved much better for him than they did for me.  He didn't
usually have any trouble with them.


JV: So you like to sing?

JG: I used to.  I sound like an old foghorn now.  And for some reason or another it bothers me
because I used to sing Alto, and I cannot do it anymore, I just can't.  But I'm sure it's because of
the tracheotomy I had, it just ruined my throat.  Don't try, anymore.  Well, I sing in church, but
it's real low.


JV: One last thing then that I didn't get about college - did you have any honors in college, or
anything like that?

JG: No, they didn't make a big deal about that, really.  We graduated and got our diplomas, and
that was it.  I truly don't remember whether any of the kids graduated with honors.  They had a
different sort of deal because they had what they call a 5-year course.  And those where girls who
started out going to the University.  You think 3 years is a long haul, these kids would start out
going to the University.  Summers they came over and did their 6 weeks preliminary stuff for two
years, then the third summer, they came over - spent the whole summer - and were there at the
nursing school for two years.  They had three years of college and then two in nursing school. 
And that was five straight years.  But they had a BS degree, we just had RNs, the three year kids. 
They don't have a three year course anymore, all it is is the.... And they've dropped the degree
course to four years.  It's an entirely different setup now than it was then, but I really don't think
there were any real specific honors.  I'll have to ask Dordy that next time I talk to her, and she
might remember.  I don't remember anybody being particularly honored for any special stuff that
they did.  But that's a good point, I'll ask Dordy see if we can come up with anything.  In fact,
that would even be worth a phone call.  I can find all sorts of excuses for phone calls, you know.
(Laughs)  


JV: Did you go to college with any of your high school friends, or did they all go elsewhere?

JG: Nope. There was one girl that graduated a year or so before I did that was there, but she was
the only girl from Lockport.  And that's kid of unusual, because it really wasn't that far.  And I
don't know why Irma ended up going there, or why she did go there.  But I didn't go there
because she did, I didn't know her.  I did know one other girl who had graduated from there, but
that would have been six years before me because she was the girl that I mentioned my brother
went with for a while, she was the daughter of friends of my mother and father that he had as a
girlfriend because he didn't have many girlfriends.  And she graduated from there.  But she was a
lot older than I was, I don't think that was the reason.  I don't know why I went to Strong. 
Probably because it was more expensive.  I thought I was doing some great thing.  Aren't sure.


JV: Did you have any thoughts of what you wanted to do with your degree before you finished,
or did you just kind of say, "I'll decide when I'm done..."?

JG: No.  I liked the operating room better than any, that was my favorite place to work.  But there
again, the operating room is entirely different than it is now because we weren't allowed to scrub
- well, for real simple operations we would scrub, but we weren't allowed.... The woman who
was superintendent of nurses, who ran the nursing school, had no use for the operating room, she
hated it.  And anybody who liked the operating room wasn't much nursing material as far as she
was concerned.  So there wasn't a great deal of operating room in our curriculum, but what we
did have I liked.  And the other thing that made it special for me is because at that point, there
was not too much brain surgery being done.  And there was a doctor there who did nothing but
brain surgery, and he had his own scrub nurse and the woman who was the head nurse in the
operating room knew how interested I was, and they got this Dr. VanWagonen to agree that I
could come and stand on a stool on an operating room and watch him operate.  He hated students
anywhere around, and he always could tell a student because we wore black stockings.  But for
some reason or another his scrub nurse and the head nurse were good friends, and she convinced
him and I went in and watched him operate, do a brain operation.  I thought I was pretty special,
I'll tell you.  And that made me really want to do a lot of nursing.  But there was no point in
trying to do it in Rochester because there wasn't that much experience there that I could really
get anyplace for it.  I think maybe I vaguely thought maybe I'd get into it after we went to New
York, we just had to go down and do regular staff duty when we went to New York.  But I think
at one point I figured maybe I might get into the operating room there, but I didn't stay long
enough, so that took care of that.  But that was the one thing I really liked, I did like the operating
room.


JV: What did you do the summers that you were off of school?

JG: Just stayed home, mostly.  We still lived in the house on East Avenue.  There again, the
question was money.  There really wasn't....  One summer - what did we do?  No, that was the
last summer, I guess.  I drove out to Ohio.  But one of the summers we may have gotten a cottage
down at the lake while I was home.  But as far as actually remembering going home from school
and being home and what I did, I can't, I really don't know.  It was probably just good to get
home and see the kids, like you guys say, hang out.  Just do stuff with them, because you never
saw them otherwise.  And a lot of the kids had gone to college, so they were home for the
summer too.  So I'm sure that's pretty much what I did.  Drove around in the car, because I
couldn't drive all year long when I was down there.  And I dearly loved to drive.  


JV: What kind of a car was it?

JG: Oh, when I was in training we had a Ford.  My father always had Studebakers before that, but
we couldn't afford them anymore.  It was a Ford we had then, and then my last year I think he got
a little grey Ford Coupe, and I loved that little thing.  That was a great little car.  But they were a
lot different than they are now, I'll tell you.  No such thing as automatic shifting, automatic
transmissions.  Yeah, they were a bit different.  But you still felt pretty good driving around in
them.  Of course by then I was 18, 19 years old, and there was none of this student driver thing. 
Junior license. 


JV: Junior license?

JG: Oh, I had a junior license.


JV: When did you get that?

JG: 16.


JV: So when you're 16, you take the driver's test, and that gives you....

JG: You could drive just during the day, couldn't drive after dark.  That's about it, until you were
18.  Then you got your full license.  


JV: And they called that a junior license, beforehand?

JG: 16 to 18.


JV: Did you have to take another test when you were 18?

JG: Nope.  Never took another test. 


JV: You just had to show you knew how to drive before they would....

JG: Yeah. All you had to do was go and renew your license.  I guess maybe they used to make
you take the test if you'd had any accidents or you had anything on your license, but I never did. 
That's probably one reason why I refused to take another   well, no, I shouldn't say that.  But I
had always said that when I had to have my license renewed in   I think it was either '98 or '97
that I had to renew it, because they were four year licenses in New Hampshire.  And after 75 in
New Hampshire you have to take a test, and I wouldn't renew my license even...  I had stopped
driving before that because I just wasn't, my eyes weren't good enough.  Everybody worried too
much about my driving so I quit.  But I wasn't going to take another test because when I did
drive up there I had just certain places I went.  And I knew where I was going, I knew where all
the stop signs were, I knew where all the side streets were, and I always drove in the morning
when there wasn't much traffic after the rush was done.  So I knew that if I went and took a test
they'd take me on streets that were over by the place that I wouldn't drive on because there was
too much traffic.  So I never would have renewed my license, because I just wouldn't because I
didn't drive there and I wasn't going to take a chance.  But I understand now that they are doing a
lot different with older people and renewing licenses and such.  They are giving instruction,
they're taking people   not as actual tests   but taking them and giving them some suggestions if
they are doing things that are not good and not right.  And that's good.  This is in New
Hampshire they're doing this now, and I think that's an excellent idea because I think 85 and
older is much to old to be driving.  I don't care if you do have all your faculties, your reaction
time isn't that quick.  And the way traffic is now..... And I think somebody really needs to be
doing a lot of checking on a lot of these people because I think they're the reason for a lot of
accidents.


JV: There are lot of people out there that are driving that shouldn't be.

JG: And as far as the older ones are concerned, I really think that they need to be - monitored, I
guess, is a good word.  But not make them feel like they are stupid and not able to drive, but
make them understand that there are things that they do that they don't even realize, I'm sure. 
Two or three years ago there was a woman who had lived in Concord all her life.  She was in her
80s, she got on the wrong way going the wrong way on the throughway, an expressway.  She got
in an accident and she was killed, it was right up by our house, right by where I lived.  And
there's not a very long expressway    it goes right through   there's one expressway, and it goes
right through the center of Concord.  Elevated.  And you get on, you know, going east or west  
or north and south, I guess you'd say   and they have different entrances, and she got on the
wrong entrance and was going the wrong way.  And I'm sure that basically she was ok, but you
don't realize how quick things like that can happen.  And you'd think if she'd had all of her
faculties and stuff and she lived in Concord and seen this expressway put through there, she
should know.  But they don't - you can be preoccupied, or lots of things can happen.  And I think
if younger people are attuned to that and used to watching these people, maybe they can make
them understand. Time will tell.


JV: When was the last time you had driven?

JG: Well, I went down to David's in '97, '96.  Lynn came up to get me in the fall and took my
car, we drove my car down to Durham and that's the last I drove.  In fact, I didn't drive any of the
way down, really, because that was someplace I didn't know. And there was going through
Washington and through Pennsylvania, and I just wouldn't do it.  


JV: So '96, that's not too long ago.  Does it feel like it's been a long time?

JG: Yeah.  But it's strange because I don't have the desire to drive anymore like I did.  It used to
bother me terribly when I'd get in the car and couldn't drive, it was awful, it was just awful.  But
every once in a while I'll drive.  You don't know where they live.  The live on a highway, but
they live way back off the highway, and it's a stone dirt road that they call a driveway, but it's
really a road because there are two other houses of people that live along there, they all use the
same thing.  So I drive on that one once in a while, because if there is a car coming you gotta stop
because you can't pass them.  So I'll get in the car down at the corner and drive to the house once
in a while, but like I said I don't have the desire anymore to do it, so I just let them go.  But it
was a terrible thing when it happened, I'll tell you.  That was one of the hardest things I ever did
in my life.


JV: Giving up your license?

JG: I never gave it up, I still carry it.  


JV: The memories...  (Laughs)

JG: No, I just quit driving.  But your grandfather did that too.  He had a slight rear end accident,
and that was back before we moved to Concord.  And he never drove after that.


JV: Just suddenly, when that happened, he just didn't want....

JG: He said, "I don't know what happened.  I don't know whether I blacked out, or what I did." 
So he just quit.  He didn't trust himself, and he had sense enough to stop it.


JV: And there are people that do that that don't stop, and that's what's....

JG: And that's why....  I mean, I felt, most of the time I felt fairly comfortable.  And when it got
to the point in Concord when I didn't feel comfortable doing it, that's when I quit.  The kids were
hollering at me a long time before I quit.  As long as I felt comfortable, it was ok.  And I didn't
have any accidents or anything, so....  I just didn't feel comfortable going into parking lots and
having to back up to get out of a parking thing.  And I'd have to back up, and I was always so
afraid I wouldn't see a car or something, because I don't have any peripheral vision at all.  And
you think you see and you don't.  When I got uncomfortable, that was it.




Chapter 6 - Dating and Robert


JV: Tell me a little bit about exactly when you met Grandpa.  You said you saw his picture.

JG: Yeah, Lucy had the graduation picture that he had taken when he graduated from Bentley,
which was the accounting school in Boston.  And he went there because he didn't have the
money and Bampi didn't have the money for him to finish it at Hamilton.  Besides which, his
marks weren't all that good.


JV: Did he start at Hamilton?

JG: Yeah, he went to Hamilton in 1933, and he went two years, and then he couldn't continue to
go because it was a pretty high-cost college at that time.  It still is, but it was high for those times
too.  So then he decided he would go to New England because that's where his Uncle Horace
was, and Uncle Horace was an accountant.  So Robert decided that's what he wanted to look into
and do, so he ended up going to this Bentley School of Accounting.  He graduated from there in
'39, and that's the picture that I had, or Lucy had, and that I thought was so great.


JV: Where was Hamilton?

JG: In Utica, it's just outside of Utica, NY, which was right along the Throughway, east of
Geneva, Syracuse.


JV: Did he have a good experience there?

JG: Oh yeah, he had a great time.


JV: And his grades showed it (laughs).

JG: Yeah, he joined the fraternity.


JV: Which one?

JG: No, I don't guess he did join a fraternity.  I don't think he could afford it.  David did, 'cuz
David went there too.  In fact, it's interesting because David, after two years, decided that he
didn't want to stay at Hamilton either, and his father said "Ok, if you want to go somewhere else,
but you're on your own if you do, my money goes to Hamilton."  And he meant it.  He wouldn't
have given him any more money.  Either he finished at Hamilton, or he finished on his own. So
David finished at Hamilton.  


JV: Did he have any experiences there at Hamilton that you know of, funny stories?

JG: Well, I'll tell ya.  I can't remember any particularly, I know they had some very good times. 
Of course I didn't go there, but we did go back to one reunion I think at Hamilton.  But Hamilton
was strictly a men's college, and I never went there for anything except occasionally.  I went
when David went there, I went through a couple things.  But I don't honestly remember any great
stories of Robert and Hamilton, but if I think of any, I'll write them in my little book and you can
add them in.  I'm sure there were a lot of them, and he could tell you some dandies, I'm sure. 
But he had a car while he was there, and I never could quite figure that one out, but he'd rather
have the car than eat, I'm sure, so they got around all right.  And it was quite the thing then to go
to girl's schools and seek out the girls at the girl's school.  I'm sure there was plenty of that.  Like
I said, I may remember something.


JV: Did he have any girlfriends there?

JG: Not any particular that I know about.  The only one that I know about is the girl that he
started going with in New England after he went there, and she was the Catholic girl.  He was
quite serious about her, because he was also serious at the time about learning and possibly
converting to Catholicism.  At this point, I can't honestly tell you and remember whether it was
because of his mother's terribly strenuous objection, or...  I really don't remember why he quit
going with her.  Maybe it was me.  I don't know for sure, but I know he was still going with her
when I first knew him.  But you see, I never thought anything would ever come of that because
he was way, way, above my dreams of anything.  He was the big guy that had graduated, all that
stuff.  I really never had any hopes.  Maybe that's why I got him, I don't know.


JV: He was so used to everybody chasing him, that he kinda....

JG: Yeah.


JV: What was Bentley like for him?

JG: He worked hard.  He put himself through there.  He worked in restaurants and dishwashing
and did all sorts of stuff.  It did not give a degree like a BS, he just had an accounting certificate,
and that's why he wanted to go on and finish college and get his other two years so he could have
a degree because in New York State you couldn't become a CPA unless you had a degree.  You
could have all the accounting courses you wanted, the more the better I suppose, but you had to
have your degree in order to get a CPA certificate in New York State.  So that was the reason for
the going back to college after we were married.  


JV: So he graduated in '39, what was he doing when you guys met?

JG: He worked for a....  GE was a big conglomerate for those days, and they picked up a lot of
the kids from Bentley for their accounting and offices, and he worked in a small electrical store
in, I can't tell you the name of the place now, but it was just outside of Boston as sort of an
apprenticeship before he went to the big GE plant in Connecticut, Bridgeport.  That was their big,
central plant at that time.  But he did this sort of apprenticeship in this electrical appliance store. 
And I guess he kept the books or something, I'm not sure, but that's where he was working when
I first met him.


JV: So tell me about your first meeting - do you remember when you very first met him?

JG: It was just a casual thing.  I mean, he came with his mother and father to see Lucy, and of
course we talked all the time about him, but he would come back.  When he went to Geneva he
would toot up to Rochester for an evening or whatever, and quite often Lucy knew he was
coming and so Lucy wasn't there, I was.  So we'd go to the movies or something, then we just
began corresponding, and it just sort of escalated from there.  And that's the main reason I went
to New York and conned Dordy to go with me, because it was so much closer to Bridgeport. 
Yeah, it was real handy.  It worked out real well because he could come down every weekend,
and we were very diligent about when we went down there at first, we stayed in the hospital or
the nursing dorm, but it didn't take us long to find an apartment, and he could come down and
stay the weekend.  A method in our madness, you know.


JV: So it was pretty much just casual at first.

JG: Yes, very casual, and it was just sort of a slow growing thing.  I don't know, he never told
me, if he did I've forgotten, what his reaction was.  I guess he figured it was just obvious, as long
as he kept coming back and he didn't see Lucy and all he saw was me he'd come back again, so,
it was just sort of obvious.  It was one of those things, it was meant to be, that's all there is to it,
and that's all it was.  But I never really, well, to use the expression, I never thought I'd get him, I
really didn't.  And I didn't let myself dwell on it because I just really figured there was no hope. 
I just sort of enjoyed it and let it go at that.  So when I got into 1940 and 1941, then I knew it was
serious, and that's when I broke up....  I still continued, and he still continued to go with his girl
up there.  But Spring and Summer of '41, we pretty much knew it was pretty serious.  And he...
we graduated from the University in June, but then we had to finish school until September to
make up for any time we lost, and he came for graduation.  I don't remember how we had my
parent's car but we did, something or other.  Maybe it was his car that he had.  I guess it was his
car.  But anyway, we had a week off at graduation time so I was going home and my mother and I
were going to drive out to Ohio, because I'd been going with this kid from Rochester who took a
job with Delco, a salesman thing, and drove one of those big busses that they drive around.  They
had sent him out to Ohio, so I was going out there, and his mother called me and said that she
wanted me to stop at the house before I left Rochester and get something to take out to him. 
Well, lo and behold what I was taking out to him was his grandmother's diamond that he was
going to give me.  And Robert was with me at graduation, you know, and Robert was with me
when I drove up to his house to get this ring.  And Robert took me home to Rockport.  And then
he was going to have to leave on Sunday, no, he was going to leave Monday morning because my
mother and I were leaving to drive out there on Monday morning.  Now I'm getting confused
again, but it had to be my father's car because Robert was hitchhiking, he didn't have his car.  So
my mother and I took him up to Route 20 which goes straight across New York State, that was
before the Throughway was here.  So we took him to Route 20 which was on the way to Ohio
where we were going, and dropped him off so he could hitchhike back to Boston.  And he didn't
know what was going to happen because I didn't know either for sure.  I wasn't sure what I was
going to do with this guy.


JV: This was Harry?

JG: No, I didn't go with him too awful long.  Anyway, it was one of those real rush jobs on his
part for some reason or another.  I think part of it was because he wanted to stay out of the
service, and if he was married it might help, you know?  But anyway, we dropped Robert off and
my mother and I drove out there, and I won't go into all the gory details, but some of them were
kinda gory.  I gave him the ring, and I wouldn't take it and my mother and I left on Wednesday
morning.  And that was the end of that one.


JV: And he wasn't too happy about it?

JG: No, he wasn't too happy about it.  But I called Robert and he was.  That was what was
important.  So from then on it was very serious, because I knew and obviously he did too, and
that was it.  So we saw each other some throughout the summer, but of course I was working all
the time.  And Dordy stayed right there and worked too, so she earned some money to go.  I
didn't have any.  My mother and father probably were glad to put me on the train and get rid of
me.  So the two of us went to New York....


JV: Now at what point, as soon as you were done with working you went to New York?

JG: When we finished our time, they always gave us a dinner and put on our black band and I
was out of there the next morning.  The next day I was out of there and that night Dordy and I
went to New York.  We went on the train and we had an upper-berth.  I don't know whether you
know anything about upper-berths in a train but they weren't very much, and the two of us slept
in that upper-berth because we couldn't afford anything else. (laughs) So we got to New York
and friends of ours that had gone down there previously, graduated a year or so before, were
down there working.  And they took us under their wing and got us all settled.  So it was quite an
experience, I'll tell ya.  Neither one of us had been anyplace or done anything like that.  This was
an entirely new experience.


JV: So why exactly did you go?

JG: We got jobs in Presbyterian, Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, which was one of the biggest
ones.  And they were always glad to get strong nurses, so we didn't have any trouble getting a
job.  We had the job before we went.  We just went there and started working.  We both went on
a private floor, they had lots of private floors then, you know, where everybody had a private
room, and you were practically a private nurse taking care of one person.  So it was a good
experience.  But I didn't stay there for very long.  And then too, I think if I'm not mistaken,
Dordy... they give New York State RN Exams twice a year, and she finished... We graduated in
time so that because she didn't miss any time she took her exam in June.  And they were long
drawn out three day affairs, but I didn't - I had to wait until December to take mine.  So I took
my exams down in New York, and actually, I think it was towards the end of December - no, it
was the first part of January, I guess, that I took my diploma exam, and right after that I went
home.  Oh, well, I skipped.  The 7th of December in '41 was a weekend, and Robert was in New
York, and we heard the news of Pearl Harbor, and that's when we decided we were going to get
married because we thought he would have to go in the service, and we wanted to be married
before.  So I kept on working, I took the exams in January.  And I had gotten an infection in my
finger from a papercut, but I took the exams anyway and I had a big puffed up finger.  I went
home with this bad infection right after the exams, and my mother and father met me at the train
station and took me to the doctor, and he put me right in the hospital because I had septicemia(?),
which the infection gets into your blood.  So I had a strep infection, and they had just come out
then with sulfanilamide, which they used for strep and staph and stuff.  And that might not totally
accurate, but that's alright.  And they gave me these heavy doses of sulfa, and I was allergic to it,
so I had that on top of the infection.  It cleared up the infection, but I was allergic to it, and my
whole arm swelled up, and I sat there in bed with my arm in a - we used to call them arm baths -
and it was a big long tub, and you had to sit there with your arm in water soaking it.  We finally
got it cleared up, but I had a bandage on my finger when we were married.  And we were married
on the 28th of February, you know, and that was it.


JV: That was quick.  How did he ask you to marry him, or was it just kind of a decision you both
made?

JG: A decision we both made that night.  I can still see us, we just had this little bitty small
apartment, and we had two couches together in a triangle shape, and they doubled as beds, but
Dordy slept in one and I slept in the other.  But we were sitting there because we only had one
leather chair, and we were sitting on it listening to the news when Pearl Harbor was bombed.  So
that night, I don't imagine we got much sleep, but we decided to get married.


JV: Just like that, huh?

JG: That's the story, it was real fast, I'll tell ya.


JV: So when did you get a ring?

JG: Sometime between December 7th and January.  No, it was after I took the exams, I know,
because Robert had come up to Geneva and my mother and I went down there.  I can't remember
for sure whether my father went with us or not, but I know we went out to dinner at this real nice
restaurant and that's when he gave me my ring. 


JV: Do you remember what restaurant?

JG: Yeah, I remember the restaurant, but I can't remember the name.


JV: Is that the same ring that you're wearing now?

JG: No, actually, that is not the diamond.  This is the diamond out of that ring that I gave
diamonds to all the boys, and I had...  I don't know if you remember, it was platinum - the dinner
ring itself was platinum, so this is half platinum and half gold to represent my engagement ring
and that ring.  And I did that partly because I had one extra diamond and no kid to give it to.  It
sorta got fouled up because I had this ring made and the diamond they put in it, I lost it.  So I had
to take one of those other diamonds.  Anyway, that's the way it turned out.  That was a long story
too, as far as those diamonds are concerned, but we got it straightened out.


JV: The diamonds that you gave all the kids were the diamonds in your wedding ring?

JG: No, they were the diamonds that were in this big dinner ring that had 11 diamonds in it.  It
graduated from a real big one down to the smaller ones, and the big one I had always...  Grandpa
gave it to me on my birthday, and my birthday was Barbara and Eddie's wedding day.  And that's
when he gave it to me, when we had their reception at home.  And so I had always told Kelly,
since she was my birthday baby, because she was born on their anniversary, you see, and on my
birthday, so I always told her that she could have that big diamond.  Well, things got sorta
screwed up because Linda's Scott had a diamond - his grandmother, his father's mother, had
given her diamond to Steve and Linda for Scott before she died.  Well, then Steven's sister had a
son - she was married, had a son - and he was married before any of the other kids and she
thought that he should have his grandmother's diamond since he was the first one to get married. 
So they very nicely gave the diamond to her so Scott didn't have any diamond because he had
that diamond, and I did not figure he needed another one.  So I had to come up with a diamond
for Scott.  So that's why I said that we figured this thing out and everybody's got their diamond's
now, this is mine, and I'm all through with them!  I don't worry, this is the reminder of the ring,
so that's all out of the way.


JV: So what happened to the wedding ring?

JG: You mean, my engagement ring?  The diamond in that went in place of the one in the big
ring for Kelly because I had promised her a diamond and I just couldn't go back on a promise.  It
wasn't the same diamond, but it was my diamond so it ought to be enough to her.  It will, I'm
sure.  


JV: Do you have the actual band anymore from your engagement ring?

JG: Well, I got my wedding ring.  This is my wedding ring, this little bitty thin one.  See how
thin it is?  I've never had that off.


JV: And it's never wore down?

JG: Yeah, it was wide, yeah, it was a wider one.  It'll break one day, I'm sure, because it is very,
very thin.  It had fillagree on it, and that's all worn off.  But this is - that was my wedding ring. 
This is Robert's wedding ring, and that is my mother's wedding ring.  So these I will be cremated
in.  This one goes to Linda Massell, and that's another one that Grandpa gave me, this one goes
to Barbara, and this one goes to Bonnie because Bonnie didn't have any kids to give any
diamonds to.  And David has the one that I told you the story about, so everybody's got a
diamond that represents something from that side of the family.  I feel kinda good about that one. 
It makes me feel good to be able to do that.  


JV: What's this ring right here?

JG: That's my mother's ring - the kids gave me that on our 25th Anniversary.  That's David,
that's your mother, that's Linda, that's Bonnie, and that's Barb.  It's getting up there too, 30 years
old.


JV: I'm going to back up real quick and ask you another question.  Did you go to New York just
because you got that job, or did you kinda look for a job in New York so that you could be closer
to Grandpa?

JG: Well, that's why we went to New York.  I conned Dordy into going down with me so I could
be close to Robert.  Of course, she loved Robert too.


JV: So it was real easy to get the job.

JG: Yeah.  We had the job before we went, and you know, we both expected to stay there quite a
while.  I really pulled a...  it was a nasty trick that I pulled on her because we were going to be
there and share the apartment and all stuff and I just left her.  She understood, but that's one
reason... well, I think she probably would have gone in the service anyway, but she went in the
service shortly after I left.  She was there, she came to Ithica, and she stood up with me, and then
wasn't too long after that that she went in the service.  But that was a good deal back then.  She
had a lot of experience and went a lot of places and did a lot of things and met her husband.  You
know, that was the best part of it.





Chapter 7 - Early Marriage and Births


JV: Yes, now I want you to tell me about your wedding day.

JG: Well, like I said, it was quite a day.  We didn't...  Number one, we couldn't afford a big
wedding, and number two I didn't want a big wedding, and I didn't want to be married in
Lockport because I wouldn't be married at the Baptist Church because the minister that I told you
I wanted to marry me did not feel that it was right for him to come back up to that church and
perform the ceremony.  So the only way I could have him marry me was to go down and we were
married at Bob's sister's house in Ithica.  And we didn't, like I said, we didn't have the money,
we didn't want a big one, so we were married at their house.  The minister came from Rochester. 
There really weren't too many people there, Bob's mother and father, my mother and father,
Dave and Stella who were Bob's sister and brother-in-law, Lucy and John Weaver, Uncle
Horace, Aunt Ruth didn't come I don't think, Stella Longwhite(??) who was another cousin of
Robert's - that's on the other side of the family, Dordy, and Bill Gallagher.  Bill Gallagher was
Robert's buddy from Bridgeport, they both worked for GE.  Bill had gone in the service, I think. 
He was still in the states, so he came back and he stood up with Robert, and Dordy stood up with
me.


JV: So those two were your best man and maid of honor?

JG: Yep, and that's all we had.  


JV: Did you have a... what was your wedding dress?

JG: Just a suit, a light blue suit, sort of a real soft fuzzy fabric, a crazy turban kind of hat thing
fixed up with bunny ears (??).  I think the blouse I wore was maroon and my shoes were maroon. 
Dordy wore a suit.  Very simple.  Robert didn't even get a new suit, he couldn't afford it.


JV: He just wore a normal suit.

JG: Yeah, we didn't go any place, we stayed right there.  Everybody left, my mother and father
had to go home, and Bob's mother and father - my mother and father would have stayed a little
bit longer but we conned them into leaving because... we had them stay as long as they should
have, because it was getting late and they needed to go home, but there was absolutely no
drinking at all when Bob's father was around. Period, end of conversation.  So they left.  And my
mother and father were very nice and took them home, was what it amounted to. (laughs) So, that
was our wedding.  And Lucy Weaver had fallen and was walking around on crutches.  She had a
sprained ankle.  It was quite a celebration.  Then Bob and I stayed there.  We had my mother's
(car....?) but I also can't remember how my mother and father got home.  No, I guess we had
Robert's car.  They must have left their car up in Geneva because they went home from Ithica to
Geneva with Bob's mother and father, then they must have driven home.  I really wasn't too
interested in how anybody was getting anyplace, but they got there all right.  Didn't make too big
an impression on me, I guess.


JV: So did you all have lunch?

JG: Yeah, we had a reception kinda thing.  Their house was on three levels.  The ground level
was their living room and two smaller rooms, and downstairs was the kitchen and the dining
room.  Their dining room was sleet floors, so we had the reception down there and were married
in front of the fireplace.  It wasn't a big reception, you know, little sandwiches, I guess, wedding
cake.  It was not a big fancy deal.


JV: Was it mainly just with the people that had come to the wedding, or did anybody more show
up?

JG: No, that was all.  Because, see, we didn't know that many people in Ithica.  And like I said, I
can't remember for sure whether - but I think there was gas rationing then too, so we had to be
careful how much gas you used because a lot of people had to use gas to get to work.  When it
came to banging around, they didn't have any.  So that was part of the reason that we stayed right
there.  The weather was not very good, 28th of February, understandable, so we stayed right there
until - I can't remember whether we left Monday or Sunday.  The wedding was on Saturday.  We
probably left Monday morning, probably stayed there Sunday and left Monday morning and
drove out back up to Lockport because there was real heavy snow, and it took us quite a while to
get back there.  Then it's sort of a blank. Bob had the week off - oh! I forgot.  He had two weeks
off, and the week before we got married he had a hemmrhoidectomy.  He was sitting on a pillow
for the wedding, he was not very comfortable.  So that was one of the reasons we didn't do much
traveling around, it wasn't very comfortable for him to drive.  But he wanted it done in Geneva
because he was used to that.  He went to his regular doctor that had always taken care of him.  So
we had one more visit in Geneva before we drove back to Bridgeport, and then he had to be at
work the following Monday.  Before we were married, he lived in a big old house with a whole
bunch of guys that worked at GE.  There was about 8 of them, I guess, boy there wasn't really
any place for me.  So we rented a room down the road from that house.  That's all, we just had
the one room.  And I could get up in the morning and get Robert's breakfast, but I was pretty
much stuck for the rest of the day.  A lot of the time I would walk down to these people who
lived across the road from where the guys lived because Robert had become real friendly with
them, and I had gotten to know them.  So I would go down to their house.  We still keep in touch
with them.  I talked to them not too awful long ago, they'd go to Florida in the wintertime, so I
call them every once in a while and see how Marge is doing.  She's not well at all, but that only
lasted for a short time because Robert got...  He had received - he was classified 1A, which
meant that he would go the next draft from that draft board.  So because he was married they
changed his classification from 1A to 3A, which was married, and they allowed him to take me
back.  He quit GE, that was in April or May, and they allowed him from that Connecticut draft
board to transfer his papers to Lockport and go from there. He was still on the draft, and he
would go from there because I was going to start working in Harrison, in the hospital in Harrison,
while he was in the service, save my money and we'd have all sorts of money when he got home
and all that garbage.  So we went back to Lockport and they didn't call him, and they didn't call
him, and he finally got a job driving a bus, and we took a small apartment.  We'd been with my
mother and father, and we took a small apartment and were there for quite a while.  And I started
working at Harrison's, and then in April of '43, let's see, that was '42, and in April of '43, they
finally got around to calling him and they had mucked up his papers, and they'd gotten lost, and
he was supposed to give them one paper that he didn't, I guess, and we never really did figure out
what it was.  But anyway, they finally caught up with him and he went to the reception center
which was at Niagara Falls in Youngstown.  He was there for I don't know how long, a lot longer
than most guys are, and he struck up an acquaintance with a guy who was Sargent up there, he
was stationed there.  And he was going with a girl who lived in Lockport, so Robert would come
home at night with him, and then go back in the morning before roll call.  And that's how I got
pregnant, while he was coming back and forth.  But then they finally shipped him out, so I stayed
in the apartment for a while, but then I began to have the morning sickness, and it was awful, so I
gave up the apartment and went back with my mother and father who had moved to an upper and
lower apartment house that side of town, but it was close to Harrison's, so it was easy for me to
get to work.  And I stayed with them until August, he was down in Fort Belguare(?), and I
wanted to go see him.  I was getting sort of big then, and Harrison's wouldn't give me any time
off to go to see him, so I quit.  And I went to Virginia and stayed with him for 5 or 6 weeks, I
guess, and then they were getting ready to ship him out so I came home.  I came home, and in the
meantime, congress passed the law for 27 year-olds, they didn't have to be drafted, and Robert
was 27.  He was 27 in the summer of '43.  I was 23, he was 28.  So they discharged him.  Those
guys didn't have to go in the service so they discharged him.  See, they were getting kinda, by
that time they were getting pretty filled up.  They had all the guys they needed, really.  That was
before they got into the real awful heavy fighting, and so they discharged all those older guys. 
And he was discharged in December, and he got home - he was home for Christmas because his
sister and brother and mother and father came up.  Mother and Father had moved back to Regent
Street, and he was home the week before David was born.  We were pretty lucky, that one - that
worked out real good.


JV: So you didn't find out you were pregnant until he was already shipped out to Virginia?

JG: Yeah, shortly after I got pregnant, he was shipped out.


JV: What was his reaction when you told him?

JG: Oh, he was glad.  You know, we didn't know at that time what was going to happen, but then
there was a much different feeling about being pregnant then there is now.  As far as the wife was
concerned it was the feeling of if they didn't come back, you'd always have something.  It was an
entirely different atmosphere about the whole deal.  We were happy that I was pregnant.


JV: Were you wanting to have a baby before he left?

JG: Well, we didn't plan it, in fact it was a mistake, really, because that was in the days when
they used diaphragms and stuff, and the only thing we could figure is that there was a hole in the
diaphragm, because we didn't plan it really.  But we were not unhappy.  I think it was a wait and
see situation, because I think probably what I figured was that if he wasn't shipped overseas, I
would go along with him, because I could always work.  You can get a job anyplace when you
were a nurse, and I could have worked.  If he stayed in the states, I would have gone with him. 
But it sort of didn't work out that way.  But he never left Fort Belguare except to be discharged.
But then - now I gotta figure out what we did then.  Oh, after David was born, he worked for a
man in Niagara Falls - no, that was after he started school.  I can't honestly remember what he
did between the time David was born.... He had to figure out something, where he was going to
work and what he was going to do.  He went back to GE, and they gave him a job in Syracuse
rather then going all the way back to Connecticut, and then he went back and forth until July, and
then we moved down there.  And we were there in Syracuse from July of '44 until October or
November or December of '45, because I was pregnant with Sharon....  Now when was I
pregnant with her?  I always got pregnant when we moved.  So if she was born in Februrary, I
was pregnant for her in May or June.  No, that's not right, we stayed.... Oh, I know what it was. 
We went to Syracuse in July of '44, when David was 6 months old, and then we were there until
the next summer, and then we moved to Liverpool, to a bigger place, and it was at Liverpool that
I got pregnant for Sharon.  That was the move.  Then we came back up to Lockport in December
of '45, she was born in February, and Bob started school in January right before he was born. 
And he went to Niagara, and he just commuted there, and we lived with my mother and father.


JV: Did he work and go to school at the same time?

JG: He worked for an accountant in Niagara Falls, but he had the GI bill, you see, so we didn't
have to pay any rent at my mother's and father's.  They had moved to the Day Road, so we had
plenty of room.  It began to get a little crowded after Sharon was born, and that's why we moved
to Niagara Falls.


JV: So at that time you didn't have to work?

JG: No, I worked some when David was little, before we went to...  Maybe Robert went back to
driving a bus, I don't know.  I honestly don't remember what he did when David was little, I
can't remember.  But I worked for Dr. Barry off and on for a while, and then I'll have to think
now when I went back to Dr. Barry for good.  Not until the late '50s, after - Barbara was born in
'53, and when she started kindergarten, I started working.  I couldn't stand not having anything to
do for so long, so I started working very shortly.


JV: I'm going to back up a little bit....  Do you remember anything about the early adjustment
time in your marriage, right there when you first got married and were having to get used to each
other?

JG: It wasn't terribly difficult, as I remember, because we were both working.  I still worked at
Harrison's.  Are you talking when we first got married? (Yes) Well, it wasn't easy just living in
that one room because we had to go someplace else to eat, and he'd get home from work and
we'd go up to another - there was a woman up in Lone Hill, which is where we were, who had
several people come in for dinner every night, we'd pay her so much a week, and that's where we
ate until we came back here to Lockport in April, no May.  So it was March and April that we
lived like that.  It wasn't too easy, but he was gone all day, and when you lived in somebody
else's house the way we did, you couldn't do too much fighting.  No, we really didn't do too
much in the beginning.


JV: So you had one bedroom in a bigger house?

JG: Yeah.  She rented rooms to other people too. 


JV: So you didn't have a fridge, or anything?  It was basically just a bedroom?

JG: Oh, no, we didn't have anything!  She'd let me go down and get Robert's breakfast in the
morning, but I, in fact, I don't guess I ate any lunch, maybe I'd have some fruit or something, but
then we'd go up to this other woman's for night at dinner.  It was different, but everybody lived
differently then, during the war.  You didn't think that much of it.  I had considered getting a job,
going down to Bridgeport and getting a job because Robert went into Bridgeport every day and
I'm sure it could have been arranged, but really I wasn't that anxious because, well, I wasn't that
aggressive, to tell you the truth.  I was afraid to go someplace new.  It was fine when Dordy and I
were together, but I didn't like to set out on big excursions by myself, I never did.  So it was
really easy for me to just sort of go along with it.  And I guess we were just foolish enough and in
love so it didn't bother me too much.  Really wasn't a big deal.  I can see now where it certainly
would have caused problems now, but I can tell you it was a lot bigger problem after David was
born, living like that.  The two of us living with my mother and father were a lot bigger problem
after David was born.  Because as far as Robert was concerned, my mother spoiled David rotten,
and she thought Robert was altogether too strict, didn't agree with what he did, and it just got a
little hairy sometimes.  I remember once, and this is when we went back there.  When we went
back to live with them in December of '45 before your mother was born, we had been by
ourselves, which made a big difference.  David was probably a year, but one incident I remember
very well, I know it was after your mother was born, because Robert put David up on top of the
refrigerator, sat him up there and let him fall down in his arms, and my mother had a fit!  She let
this whoop out of her, and she screamed because she thought he was going to fall.  And he got so
angry, and he took David and went over to my mother and he just threw him at her practically,
put him in her arms, and he said, "You take care of him, I'll take care of Sharon!"  That was not
easy.  So we decided we had to do something, and that's when we started looking for a place and
went up Fort Niagara.  That wasn't easy either, but we managed.  I remember one of the things he
used to do in the summertime, my father had a big garden, and the people across the road had
chickens and had eggs, and Robert would bring eggs out from the people across the street on the
Day Road, and sell them to everybody - he'd buy them, and bring them up and sell them at the
Fort.  We didn't have much money.  We paid $50/month for the apartment, and had vegetables
from my father's garden, and canned stuff that my mother canned during the summer and winter,
we had that in the wintertime.  And we had just enough for groceries, and that's it.  Although, we
did have a telephone.  We were the only one in the whole area that had a telephone, everybody
used it, helped us pay for it.  So we got along, I think, pretty well.  We had our arguments and
fights, most of it was over the kids, one thing or another, but I can't remember too many real bad
fights we had.  We'd have arguments and fights, but pretty much made a practice of never going
to bed, or to sleep angry, and it works.  Because you're all right in the morning.  I mean, the kids
can remember us fighting, and I'm sure we did.  We'd have arguments, and I wouldn't have
enough money to buy something, but I didn't figure it was anything that was bad or too
abnormal.  Everybody does.  No, I loved your grandfather very, very deeply.  Obviously, from the
time I met him.


JV: Even before you met him.

JG: Yeah, you might say that.  No, we had a good life, I think, I really do.  My mother - oh, she
loved him because he was my husband.  She loved the kids, and he was their father.  She didn't
approve of a lot of the stuff he does, but that's not unusual.


JV: Yeah, they always say there's never anybody good enough for your child.

JG: Everybody always has plenty to say about what you should do, and probably thinks funny
about, but it's up to you to bring them up in the best way possible, and I think that people try. 
Look at the mistakes we made, for crying out loud.  However, I am very proud of the fact that -
we must have done something right, because none of those kids ever caused us any problems,
real problems where they got into real trouble.  I can remember how badly I felt for Linda when
Scott got into trouble.  One of the worst things that ever happened, maybe, at least up to that
point, was when David rammed the front end of the Cadillac, oh that was awful.  But still, it
wasn't that bad a thing.  No bad habits or things that they did that couldn't be repaired.  


JV: What I was saying was that when you bring your kids up and they get married, it's always
hard to think of them marrying someone that's "good enough" for them.

JG: And after you get over that hurdle, it's very difficult to see them hurt, and to see them have
problems, because, I love the saying that you just get beyond the bandaid stage, you can't fix it
anymore, they have to do it themselves.  I hurt for your mother right now, because it's very
difficult for her going through what she's going through.  I really hurt for her, but there's nothing
I can do.  So I keep my mouth shut.  Sometimes I don't do that. (laughs)


JV: Did you have a prized possession, something that was very important to you at this time in
your life?

JG: You mean, when we were younger?


JV: Yes, in fact, I didn't ask you this for when you were growing up, so if you had anything that
was just a possession that was really important to you....

JG: I don't remember anything, anything that I...  Well, I can remember one thing that I was very
proud of.  I had a cameo lavaliere(?), we called them lavalieres - it's not a pin, it was just for a
chain, it was a little cameo with gold scroll stuff, and that I always thought an awful lot of.  I
think they gave that to me when she died, and I thought a great deal of that - my Aunt Marion,
the one I told you that I was so fond of.  And I may think of other things, but except that when I
was growing up I wanted to have things that I thought I needed because I wanted to look nice,
and look good, but I remember it was very difficult for me - we didn't have nylon stockings then,
we had silk stockings, and it was a great thing when you graduated from wool stockings into silk
ones.  And if we'd get a run in then we'd have to sew the run up, and wear them with a sewed up
run.  That was very difficult, very, but we didn't have the money to buy new ones, so you either
wore them or went bare legged.  We didn't like to do that either.  But I don't think I was really a
materialistic person.  Maybe it was because I pretty much had, my parents were pretty much able
to give me what I wanted when I was younger.  When it got to the point where we didn't have the
money to get things, there were so many other kids that were in the same boat, and I think we just
got so we accepted it.  Sure, we wanted things, but there wasn't this terrible problem if we
couldn't have it or didn't get it.  We'd feel badly for a while, but we went without it.  And I think
that is maybe one of the reasons why we can't accept a lot of this stuff that goes on now, because
we just learn to accept it, and we were just brought up differently.  I think it was good for us, I
really do.  I've always sort of thought in the back of my mind that someday something is going to
happen with these kids who are now so materialistic and demanding so much, not only things but
doing things and having to be on the go and do things all the time.  I think something's going to
happen sometime to bring them back to what I think is reality, anyway.  Maybe I'm wrong, I
don't know, but if it does, it's going to be very difficult.  And it's going to be - my generation, if
something like that does happen, can understand how these kids feel about it, because we kinda
went through the same thing, but we didn't have as much to begin with, and it's going to be more
difficult for them than it was for us.  We will see.  Might not even live long enough to see it, but I
still truly think that something like that is going to happen one of these days because things are
just moving so rapidly.  Time will tell, won't it?  


JV: Who was Dr. Barry?

JG: Dr. Barry was the doctor who came to our house one night - now I have to be sure when this
was because it was before I got pregnant with David, so it was in the fall of 1942, and I had been
froggin' around, trying to have a miscarriage, we think, but he came to our house because we
didn't have a doctor in Lockport.  Your grandfather was home - I don't know why he was home,
but he was home.  That was before he'd gone into the service.  We called Dr. Barry, he was at a
party at the country club in Lockport, but he came to the house and gave me - I was in a terrific
amount of pain, abdominal pain, and he gave me a shot and he said I want to see you in the office
in the morning, which was Sunday.  So I went to his office on Sunday morning, he had a
conference with another doctor in town, and they put me in the hospital and the next morning
they did abdominal surgery and I had an ectopic pregnancy.  They removed it, and removed an
ovary.  I had all five kids on one ovary - pretty good, don't you think?  And he was our doctor
ever since.


JV: How far along were you in the pregnancy when that happened?

JG: Probably a month or six weeks, something like that.  But what we sorta doped out was that
maybe it had been a twin pregnancy, but one of them got stymied in the tube.  The other one is
what I was trying to abort because I was bleeding, and I was trying to abort that one.  But the pain
was caused by the tubal pregnancy because it was getting bigger and expanding the tube, which it
wasn't made to do.  So it had ruptured just before they opened me up, but I was all right, I didn't
have any bad effects from it.  But he was our doctor, he delivered all the kids, I took care of him
before he died, worked for him for three or four years - only about a couple years that I worked
full time, I guess.  But he was a great guy, as far as we were all concerned, we loved him dearly. 
He was a good doctor.


JV: You wrote a little bit about David's birth, when you were about to have him.

JG: Yeah, I woke up with pains, and the night before your grandfather and I went over and
played bridge with the doctor and his wife at Harrison's hospital, I worked for him.  And we
were playing bridge, and he wanted to know - he and Bob were drinking beer, I guess, and he
said, "Do you want one, Jean?"  And said, "No, I can't drink beer, it gives me asthma."  And he
said, "Oh, this beer won't give you asthma, it hasn't got any hops in it."  That's what causes the
asthma and the allergies.  So I drank two beer, and I don't know whether it has anything to do
with the labor, but I went in labor that night.  And I went to the hospital about 4 or 5:00, I guess,
and I delivered around 11 or 12.  I didn't have a hard labor, I remember Dr. Dule(?) who was the
...(?) that I worked for at Harrison's, and he came in the delivery room just before he was born, I
remember.  Of course, that was before days when fathers could go in the delivery room.


JV: So Grandpa wasn't there?

JG: Oh no, he was outside, but he couldn't go in the delivery room.  So he was really quite an
easy delivery.  Came home the normal 10 days.  Seems like an awful long time, but that's the
way it was in those days, and that's what you did.  


JV: What was he like as a baby?

JG: Cute.  In fact, when he was born, the first time I looked at him I said, "Oh my God, he looks
a drenched rat."  And he did, his hair was kind of long, and it was all slicked down on his head,
and his face was real thin and scraggly.  He wasn't a pretty newborn baby, or even a cute
newborn.  He didn't get cute until later, a little bit older when he got a little bit fatter.  But he
survived because my mother loved him.  She thought he was "the thing" of course.  And it didn't
take him too long to get cute.  I guess I was proud, just like any other first mother.


JV: Was he a normal baby, where there any.....

JG: Yeah, I think we tried to push him and go by the book too much, get him off the night bottle
and all that stuff.  But we didn't really have any problems with him that I can remember.  I didn't
nurse him for very long because I didn't have any milk, and he was hungry.  Part of the reason, if
we had any problem.  No, he was a pretty normal baby until he got 2 and 3, and then he started
having bronchial problems.  He had pulmonary problems from the time he was quite young, he'd
always been an asthmatic.  But he's gotten it under control pretty good.  He'll have bouts once in
a while, but not too much.  Kira has more problems, actually, I think she has more problems now
than he had when he was a kid.  Of course, they didn't have the medications to use then that
they've got now, either.  He was really the only one of the kids that had bad allergies.  They
might have had hay fever, but most of the time they were pretty healthy kids.  And really, I mean,
I didn't - I don't think I was too fussy and got upset because I'd taken care of babies, and they
didn't scare me.  And I think that has a lot to do with the way kids adjust.  If you're not scared to
death something's going to happen to them, they adjust a lot better and do better.  That's why I
think training is good.  It's a good background.


JV: What was he like as a toddler when Sharon was born?

JG: Well, he was a year and a half, he was walking around, he got into as many problems as any
other kid.  He was very much my father's little boy, he followed my father around just like
Christopher follows your father, and he couldn't say - he knew when he heard call him "Dad," so
he called him "Da."  And he was Da from the time he could talk, just like Christopher.  We
always used to walk down - he'd get through work at 5:00, and David and I would go uptown to
the corner to meet him and ride home with him, and the minute he'd see him it was "Da, puh,"
the "puh" was pigs.  He wanted to go and see the pigs because we had little baby pigs.  He'd get
pigs in the spring and fatten them up during the summer and then butcher them in the winter, and
that's what they ate during the winter, that was part of their diet, with beef that they bought.  But
he thought a lot of those pigs, I'll tell ya.  The pigs and the chickens.


JV: So he wasn't old enough to really be jealous when Sharon was born.

JG: No, I don't think so.  Besides, he had my mother and father to spoil him.  If anything, Sharon
was the one that should have felt - not neglected, but she didn't get the attention that David got
when he was little, because we moved to the fort when she was 8 months old.  We moved up
there in October, and she was just a tiny baby when we were there, and she never caused any
problems.  I don't remember having any problems with her.


JV: What were the circumstances surrounding her birth?

JG: We were on the Day Road.  I went in labor in the afternoon.  I never can remember exactly
when she was born, but I went in labor in the afternoon and waited until Robert came home and
he took me to the hospital.  She was a longer labor, but it wasn't all that bad.  I don't think I had -
they never put me out completely or anything.  What they used to do was give you a couple puffs
of gas when you were having a pain so you could push with the pain if you were in the delivery
room, but we didn't have all the lamaze stuff, and the nurses would leave you in there, and
Robert was with me all the time, I remember.  It really wasn't that difficult a birth.


JV: So you really didn't get drugged back then?

JG: No, not that much.  They'd give you something to help the contractions, to clamp down the
uterus and cause the contractions to start, but they didn't - when she was born, I don't even think
they had spinals.  Because all I ever remember having was gas, because I can remember when
every one of them was born.  I mean, I wasn't exactly with it, but I can remember them pushing
through, then the terrible relief when it's all over.  I can remember all of them.  


JV: So you had the 10 days in the hospital...

JG: Yeah, 10 days with her.  In fact, I had 10 days with all of them.  I think maybe with Barbara I
went home a little early because she was October, we were in Middleport.  I think I took her and
we stayed on the Day Road for a few days because Bob was back in Buffalo by then.  But I really
never had any trouble with them.  I precipitated Linda on the dining room floor, so she was no
trouble.  That was fun, because I was contaminated, so they wouldn't let me on the maternity
floor.  They put me on the regular medical floor, it was downstairs from the maternity floor.


JV: Tell us what happened with her.

JG: I had contractions in the afternoon.  I went to Dr. Barry, and he gave me some ergitrate (?).  I
went to the drugstore and got that, then I went home and took castor oil, and that did it.


JV: Were you early?

JG: No, in fact I think I was a day or so late with her.  


JV: What's the ergitrate?

JG: That's a uterine contractor, to clamp down the uterus and stop the bleeding.  They don't use
it as much anymore as they did then.  So I took the castor oil, and that's supposed to start
contractions, and it did.  But I only had two or three good contractions, and I was on the phone
talking to the doctor's sister, who worked in the office, and she said I'll get him, go to the
hospital.  Well, I put down the phone and was walking over go in to the living room and lay on
the couch, and I dropped her.  Just like that.  She didn't hit her head, I caught her, but it was very
quick.


JV: What happened when you started feeling her coming?

JG: Well, she was the third one, I wasn't that worried.  Maybe I'm being too blaze about it, but I
just picked her up and went over and laid down on the davenport and waited for the doctor to get
there.  The minute I had her, my mother called and they got Dr. Barry and he came down to the
house, and I just laid there, and I can't honestly remember - I think I did deliver, I had my mother
go and get some towels and stuff, and I think I delivered the placenta.  I had my mother tie the
cord, or I did, one of the two - wait, I didn't deliver the placenta until he was there, but she had
tied the cord then he cut it.  Then, like I said, they wouldn't let me go in the maternity ward, but
he decided I should be in the hospital and she should be too.  In the meantime, Robert drove up,
and didn't know what the heck was going on.  The ambulance had gotten there by the time he
had gotten home, and so I went up in the ambulance, and they just put me on the medical floor. 
They brought a bassinet down, and she was in the room with me.  That was a real interesting one. 
Then Bonnie and Barbara went back to the old routine. I didn't have any real problems with any
of them.  Now wait a minute, I'm trying to think - I could have told you a few years ago.  One of
them I retained the placenta, I think it was Barbara.  I didn't deliver the placenta until - I can
remember Dr. Barry putting on these big long shoulder gloves.  They weren't really shoulder,
they were only up to about his elbow, but they were big long gloves, because they go right up
into your uterus and have to peel it out.  They'll do it with the gloved hand rather than an
instrument, so they really have to get up there inside your uterus, and I can remember him doing
that - I wasn't out.  That wasn't too pleasant.  But you forget.  But I remembered that for a while,
because that was pretty uncomfortable.  But it didn't last that long.  I was really surprised,
because I recouperated - you know, they used to keep you in bed for about 7 days, didn't even let
you get out, but with her, I got up the first day or so, and I really didn't have any problems at all.


JV: Just one last question - do you remember what you were doing when you had contractions
with either of them?

JG: With Barbara, I remember nobody was home.  I called a girl - I think my father came down
to get me.  With Bonnie, let's see, that was in 1950.  I gotta think back to where we were now. 
Well, a couple three weeks ago when David and I went to New York, it brought back a few
memories because we stopped to Marie Conley who used to live next door to us in
Middleport(?), and she reminded me that I called her when I needed to go to the hospital for
Bonnie to come and stay with the other kids, which I had forgotten and I still can't remember
how I got to the hospital.  Somebody took me, could have been my father, but anyhow, I got to
the hospital - yes, I guess I did go to the hospital because I was having contractions and I got in
the hospital and they admitted me, and Dr. Barry saw me, and things seemed to be going ok and
the all of a sudden I just stopped.  And I was there for a whole day, did nothing.  And then I
began to panic because hospital insurance would not pay more than 10 days in the hospital for
child birth, and if I used up all my time before I had her, I'd be in trouble.  And by that time, I
was sorta looking forward to the 10 days because I was kinda tired, you know.  So Dr. Barry said
ok, but you cannot go home or go down to your parents house, because even that is too far. If you
really start in labor good, you could have it just like you had Linda, and he said, you go to my
house because we've got an extra bedroom and you could sleep in there, and it's right next to my
room, so if you start contractions you can pound on the wall and we'll go.  So that's what I did.  I
guess Robert must have gone home and either stayed with the kids or gotten them and taken them
up to my mothers, because that would have been David and Sharon and Linda.  So I stayed at Dr.
Barry's that night, he went to work in the morning, didn't do a darn thing, and his wife and I
were sitting in the living room talking.  About 11:00, I started contractions, and we called him
and I went to the hospital and I had her about the middle of the afternoon sometime.  It didn't
take long once I got going.  So that was about it, wasn't too bad.  Wasn't like Linda.  That was,
well, there was another little forerunner to Bonnie's birth, because that's when my mother had
been in the hospital that spring, and they amputated her leg because she had cancer.  So they
amputated her leg, and it's also the time when - let's see, this was in 1950, and Robert was
working for a manufacturing place in Gasport, which is a small town between Lockport and
Middleport, which to backtrack again is the reason we moved to Middleport, because he had this
job when he got to school. So my mother had the leg amputation, and when we came home from
the hospital, we went up there to stay with her so I could take care of her because I had worked in
a hospital.  But in the fall of '49 - we had moved to Middleport in 1949 in the Spring - in the fall
I got pregnant, Robert lost his job because they were going to sell that company, and so I decided
I had to go to work, and I wasn't admitting to myself or anybody else that I was pregnant.  And
so I went to work, and the only place I could work in maternity was in the delivery room, nights. 
And we didn't have that much delivery room experience, and even though I had 3 kids I was
pretty green as far as the delivery room itself is concerned.  Because in Strong, we came from a
full staff that was on duty all the time, we really didn't have to take that much responsibility as
far as knowing when anybody was ready to go to the delivery room.  We had medical students
who did all the rectals and stuff, it was a very different situation.  But I learned fast, I'll tell ya. 
But anyway, I worked from November until the end of May when my mother had the surgery. 
And then when she came home from the hospital, we went up there and stayed.


JV: So you had to quit your job?

JG: Yeah, well, I was pregnant anyway, I was going to deliver the next month.  See, this was in
June of '50.  So this was all going on, that's why I was more confused as far as Marie was
concerned, but I did call her because she was home during the summer and she came up.  But
anyway, my cousin married a nurse, I told you way back in the beginning, so she came up and
stayed with my mother and took care of her while I was in the hospital with Bonnie, that's why I
was so tired, I think, and then we went back down there after Bonnie was born and stayed for the
summer.  Then in September, the kids had to go to school - David and Sharon - so everybody
moved back to Middleport, my mother and father included.  So that sort of took care of Bonnie.  I
took care of Bonnie and my mother both when we came back from the hospital.  But I had my 9
days so I was ok.  But I got a lot of help from people, from neighbors, and all that.  And Bob was
a big help as far as the kids were concerned, and my father was wonderful because he could
cook, so I didn't have to worry about that kind of stuff.  So it all worked out pretty well.  By the
time we moved back down to Middleport, Bonnie was two months old then and that was fine, we
could handle her.  And my mother had gotten so she could get around in a wheelchair, and she
did all my ironing - there was a lot of ironing in those days with that many kids. She'd sit in her
wheelchair and do all the ironing, which was about all she could do, but she used to wheel
Bonnie around on her lap in the wheelchair.  She was fairly good for a while, but she was pretty
much in pain all the time from the thing.  Well, it was just from September when we moved back
down there, it was sort of a progressive thing with her, and she just got weaker and weaker, and
worse and worse, and we knew very well that they hadn't gotten all the cancer, and she
eventually - we finally in January got her into a hospital bed and put her upstairs in one of the
bedrooms, and she was pretty much out of it and unconscious for a week or so before she died,
and that was in February that she died.  But one of the last things that she did that I can
remember, I was upstairs with her one afternoon.  I was holding Bonnie, and by then Bonnie was
5 or 6 months old, so she turned, I was holding her and she turned and sort of looked at my
mother and put her hands out because she'd remembered her wheeling her around in the
wheelchair, and she wanted my mother to take her.  And I said "No, babe, she can't, grandma
can't take you."  And she says, "I damn well can!" and she put her arms out and she took her and
had her on her shoulder.  But that's one of the last things that she ever did.  She sort of was in
and out of consciousness from then on.  So at the end I kept her, I had all the morphine I needed,
and I kept her under all the time because she was in excruciating pain all over, but mostly her leg.


JV: What kind of cancer did she have?

JG: Bone.


JV: And it started in her leg?

JG: Yeah, it started up above her knee, that's where they operated and removed the initial, they
thought, growth.  They didn't have the facilities they have now for diagnosis. That was back in
'50, '50-'51.


JV: But by that time it had already spread?

JG: Yes, I'm sure it had.  They didn't come right out and say so, but they never did.  When
Grandpa was operated on for cancer, they said they were pretty sure they got it all, and apparently
they did, because we never had any more problem with him.  Grandpa had cancer in '86, colon
cancer.  We didn't talk about that too terribly much because that was after he had retired, and he
was not doing all that well. He'd begun to fail a little bit.  Not like it was the last few years, but
you could begin to see it.  And he had decided when they diagnosed his cancer, he decided that
that was it, that he wasn't going to live, and the night before the surgery, the surgeon came in. 
We were all there, because the kids had come up, and the surgeon came in, and Robert looked at
him, and he said, "What do you do with your bodies?"  He said, "What do you mean, what do we
do with the bodies?"  And he said, "Well, when they die, what do you do with them?"  And he
said, "They don't die."  And he just looked at him, and glared right back at him so Robert didn't
say any more.  But he was very angry when they brought him back after the surgery the next day. 
He was very angry, and oh, he was awful!  The minute he came to at all he was out of bed, he'd
walk around the bed.  Linda was with him at that point, and he had to take the intravenous thing
along him, and oh, she had a terrible time with him because he was so angry because he thought
he was going to die, and he wanted to.  I don't know whether he remembered because of my
mother or what.  But it's funny when you think back the way he'd get up from one side of the bed
and go around to the other side, get into bed there.  Then he'd get up and go around to the other
side.  And I can't tell you how many times he did that.  But he finally straightened out after that
one too.  Linda can remember that one well, but all the kids were there, they had all come home. 
That was just before we sold the house and moved, too.  That was kind of an interesting time -
hectic, but interesting when you look back at it.  So...  We got as far as Bonnie, and getting her
into the rolls and brought up.





Chapter 8 - Robert's Early Years And Career


JV: I'm going to back up even before that a little bit and ask you to tell a little bit about Grandpa
and his younger years.  Where was he born, first of all?

JG: He was born in Cumberland, Maryland.  Bampi worked at the Y down there.  He went to
Springfield, Massachusetts, which was the YMCA school, and they went to Cumberland.  I can't
tell you where they were before that, but they were there for just a short time and he was born. 
Then they moved to Illinois very briefly, and from there they moved to Geneva.  And that's
where he spent his younger years, until he graduated from high school.


JV: What took them up there?

JG: Same thing, he was in the Y, he was Director of a YMCA.  And after they moved to Geneva,
things got....  Nanna Gould was "unwell."  She always had something wrong with her.  Things
got just too hectic financially for them to survive the way she wanted them to survive on his
salary at the Y, so he got into insurance, selling insurance for the Metropolitan.  And he did that
for the rest of his live.  Now, if we want to figure out, because he was born in 1881, and by 1916
or so, so 16 and 19, he was 35 years old then.  So he was in the insurance business from the time
he was 35 until he retired at 65, so it was 30 years.


JV: So he did pretty well with that?

JG: Yes, I would say.  You never have enough when you have kids and stuff, but no, they were
ok.  And he kept active with kids, and that's how Bob got into Boy Scouts and loved the
outdoors because he was with his father all the time.  His father kept active in Boy Scouts.  He
took the kids camping, and quite often Nanna would go with them.  We did the same thing - Bob
got into scouts when we were in Middleport, and he was in it because the Rotary club sponsored
the troops, and the man who would be Boy Scout leader, he and his wife were friends of ours.  So
Lois and I and her kids and our kids rented a cottage down in Allegheny State Park where the
Boy Scout Camp was.  They Boy Scouts would go to camp, and we'd go to the Allegheny Park. 
And so he maintained - Robert was real active with the scouts when he was younger.  David was
not as involved with it. Bob got his Eagle, but David didn't.  He was in it for quite a while, but as
soon as he got into - I think when Bob Hill quit being the Troop Leader - I can't honestly
remember when he quit, but I think that was about it.  And certainly by the time he went away to
college, he wasn't in it his senior year so much.  So, that for several years was sort of our
vacation, because Robert didn't have that much time.  He had by then started working for the
CPA firm in Buffalo.  He got a job in '51.  He got the job in December of '52, and he was lucky
because the man who owned the company that he worked for in Gasport had decided that he was
going to sell it, and he gave Robert all the time he wanted to look around and decide what he
wanted to do.  In the meantime, he still worked there, and he paid him, so that's how we lived. 
And in the fall of '51, he started working with a CPA firm in Buffalo.  They only were hiring him
as a temporary in the beginning because they had a real busy income tax season, and they'd
always hire extra help to get through the tax season, and that was it.  Luckily, they kept him on,
which was good, because he had his degree, but he had to have two years working for a CPA
firm before he could take the CPA exams for New York State.  So that worked out very well.  He
worked for them and took the CPA exams and passed them the first time he took them, which is
very unusual.  There are several parts to them, and usually they'll pass some of them and have to
wait for the next time around to take the other ones.  But he passed them all the first time he took
them, which we were real proud of.  But he was brilliant, he really was.  He was good at what he
did.  It was only - he started there in '52 - by .....  Now when did the kids start school?  David
started school in '61, and Robert had become a partner in the late '50s.  They took him in as a
partner, and they had a certain salary every month, but then at the end of the year when they
calculated everything and figured out their profit, it ended up as their bonus.  Well, all of his
bonus checks went into this savings account, and that's what put all the kids through school.  We
never touched that.  We lived on his salary, but it was a salary we knew was going to be there. 
And I could remember always being so grateful when the first of July came because I can't
remember all the figures now, but back then when you earn so much salary, then you don't pay
Social Security on the rest of your year's salary, and I think he earned $300 a month, and by June,
that was $1800, well, I can't say for sure, but anyway, by June or July, we had reached his
maximum salary that he had to pay Social Security on, and after that we had a little bit more
money.  I always waited for that, because by that time Robert had decided that I had so much to
say about how we spent money, and because we never seemed to have any, and he just finally
sitting at the dining room table one night, and he said, "Since you know so damn much about it,
you do it."  And he handed me the checkbook and all the bills, and he said, "You pay 'em."  And
his favorite expression was, when I would say something as far as, "We've got to do this," or
"We've got to do that," he would say, "And what do you expect me to use, Chicklets?"  That's
exactly the way he used to say it.  So that's how I acquired the financial handling of the Gould
family, and I did it until after he retired, and then he decided he could do it better, and he proved
to himself that he couldn't, so I got back to it again.  No, that isn't quite fair because after he
retired and took it over is when he began to slip, and we think that he had all these little bleeders
in the back of his brain a lot longer than anybody ever knew anything about, and it just began
affecting the way he thought and what he did.  But he sure as heck couldn't...  Some of the
checks, well, he would have died if he'd known what he was doing, really.  The checkbook
would be an absolute mess!  He'd balance it finally, but he had a terrible doing it.  And that was
just so un-Robert, it was awful.  But anyway, I finally took that back again and relieved him of it. 
We had some great times, I'll tell ya.  I have to tell you one story about - do you remember us
talking about the Bartrums?  This is when we were living in Middleport, we had a friend who
was selling and promoting stainless steel, and they used to put on dinners and you would invite
people to dinner and they would put on the dinner.  They'd cook a ham in a pot on top of the
stove.  Anyway, we had this dinner, we had some neighbors, and Bartrums were there.  It was in
'50, when I was pregnant for Bonnie.  Jim and Jean Bartrum were there, and somebody made
some crack about my being pregnant, and I was standing there serving something, and I said,
"Well, I'll tell ya, if you want to know who's really responsible for it, it's that guy right there!" 
And I pointed to Jim Bartrum.  And everybody sort of looked, and what I meant was that
Bartrums had 5 kids too, and Bob and I either followed them, or I had one just before she had
one, we just kept right along with our 5 kids, you know.  And they had their number 3, and then I
had Bonnie, and then they had their number 4, and that's what I meant, we just were going right
along with them.  If I got pregnant, Jean had to, and if Jean got pregnant, I had to.  But they never
got over kidding me for that.  Jim just about died.  He sat there, and his face just got beet red.


JV: What did Grandpa say to that?

JG: He caught on, he knew what I was talking about.  But you see, all these people were
neighbors of ours, and we hadn't lived there that long, and Bartrums didn't know any of these
people, really.  And Jim was so embarrassed, he just about died.  So I tried to be careful after that
what I said in front of people.  It was perfectly innocent on my part, but it certainly didn't come
out that way.  That's Middleport, pretty much.


JV: Back to Grandpa a little bit, when he was growing up, did he ever tell you any stories about
when he was a kid, or a teenager?

JG: Yeah, he used to wheel around town.  He finally got this car, he earned the money, he
worked in a bakery.  Oh, he worked in a bakery and pretty much almost cut his finger off.  That
was quite a thing that they did, because they sewed it back on.  It was stiff, but he still had the use
of his finger, it was his little finger.  It just hung by the side, he cut the bone, but they put it back
together and attached the tendons.  It was stiff, but he had the use of it.  


JV: How old was he when that happened?

JG: Well, he had to be 15, 16.  He worked nights in a bakery, so 10, 11:00 at night he washed
dishes and stuff.  But he earned money and could buy this car that he was bound he was going to
have.  I guess they had a pretty good time with it.  Oh, he told so many stories, I couldn't
remember them all.  I remember him talking about - his bedroom was at the front of the house,
and there was a little porch and a peaked roof over the porch, and his bedroom was right by that
peaked roof, and that was a real good exit and entrance that he used quite frequently,
unbeknownced to his mother, and I don't think that she ever did know it.  Robert was quite a
guy, he had his times.  But he never got in any real trouble.  I would guess that he eluded the
police a few times, but he never really got in any trouble with them.  He knew all the back roads
around there, and all the lanes and alleys and everything else.


JV: So when you say eluded the police....

JG: Oh, they'd be speeding or something, but he'd know how to get away.  But like I said, he
never had any accidents or got in any real trouble or anything.  He was just a very active,
aggressive, inquisitive boy, guy.  He still had a pretty good time, up until he married me, then he
had to settle down a little bit.  And he did, he did.  But he was a real hard worker, very
conscientious, loved what he did.


JV: Did you have any other stories about Grandpa (Bob), about when he was younger?

JG: Nothing, not that I can think of.  I mean, he was just very, very normal, I think.  He was good
in school, but he didn't put everything he had into it, because he could have been a high honor if
he did.  That's what is sorta interesting, because he wasn't all that great in college either.  He did
well when he went to Bentley, he ended up there with real good marks.  And even though he
worked and put himself through there, he really worked to get that because obviously that's what
he wanted to do, that's what he liked.  I've always wondered, and he used to allude to it
sometimes that he would have liked to be a lawyer.  I think most of that's because he loved to
argue, and I can just see him in a courtroom.  Number one, loving to argue, and number two
being so sure he was right, and he would have made a good lawyer.  And I often wondered if
maybe we should have pushed it a little more after he got his CPA and after he was fairly well
established, because a lot of lawyers are CPAs, but I'm sure he figured that he needed to keep on
and do what we were doing so we could manage with the rest of the kids.  So that's what he did,
but I think that up until he retired, he was fairly satisfied and happy.  He was very proud, I think,
and happy, when he started his own business.  I think he had greater hopes for it, but that really
doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned.  He had an excellent reputation.  You can't get on the
Board of Regents in New York State without being good, and he was very aggressive and
opinionated, but his ideas were usually quite sound.  And he would back down, but with
difficulty.  The point is, I honestly believe that he was good, and he knew what he was doing, and
he believed in what he was doing.  When he first started in that first accounting firm, they put
him on a job where the business was in a lot of trouble, and a lot of it was because of the
accounting work that had been done.  It was just a lack of good accounting and knowing what
was going on.  And he straightened that out, even though he was quite new at it.  And he had that
company until he retired.  And that's pretty good, 30 years with the same....  That was quite a
feather in his cap.  And I really believe he was well respected locally.  Lots and lots of people
knew him, and I think that made him quite happy.  But he never was a person who - he never
cared about making a lot of money.  In fact, he could have made a lot more money than he did. 
He never would push people.  After we started in the business, we'd have payroll to meet, you
know, this is after a couple three years, and we had people working for us.  He'd have a payroll
to meet, and we didn't have any money, and he'd call a client and he'd say, "I need so much." 
The client would owe him a sizeable amount of money.  He'd say, "I need so much to meet
payroll this week, can you do it?"  That's how he functioned.  He was satisfied doing it, so, it
was all right.  I never wanted for anything really, so I wouldn't complain.


JV: Can you to a little timeline of the jobs that he had throughout the years?

JG: After he came home from the army, he went back to GE, and then he went to college, and
while he was in college and a short time afterwards he worked for a CPA in Niagara Falls.


JV: What years did he go to college again?

JG: The college I referred to is Niagara, when he went after the service, from 1946 until '47.  He
had two years of college to finish and he finished it in a year and a half, and he graduated
Summa.  That was pretty good, I thought.  After that, he worked for a time while he was in
school for this accountant CPA in Niagara Falls.  Then he went to Gasport to work for that, oh, it
was called Friend Manufacturing, it was started by a bunch of Quakers.  And from there he went
to Graft, Cutting, and Coit, and that was the CPA firm in Buffalo.  And Graft, Cutting, and Coit
merged in 1963 with Pete Marwick, which was a big national firm.  When that merger took
place, he was too old to become a partner, so he was made a manager.  He did not like big firms,
it was too bureaucratic.  He didn't like it, too political, and that's when he started his own
business in 1968.  


JV: What is the name of the one in Niagara Falls?

JG: The CPA?  I can't remember his name.


JV: All these different ones - did you have to move around when he started them?

JG: No, because when he was in school and worked in Niagara Falls, we lived at the Veteran's at
Niagara Falls, and that's where we met all these people that are still our good friends like the
Bartrums.  They were all veterans who moved in there.  And I told you, we all had real low rent,
and none of us had any money, and that's why we had so much fun.  They were all veterans and
either going to school or on some sort of an apprentice thing.  So we lived there until '49 and we
moved to Middleport because he was working then for Friend, and then when my father died in
'54, we moved to the Day Road, and that's where we lived all the time the kids were growing up. 
He commuted, and we commuted back and forth to Buffalo all those years.  It wasn't t hat bad. 
Sometimes we went on the bus, most of the time he drove.  If he had to go someplace to take
clients and stuff, he'd drive.


JV: When did you move to the house on Day Road, why?

JG: 1954, because my father died.  I was the only child, my father left it to me.  He did that when
he married my step-mother.  He told her that he was leaving me the house.  He had a will, and he
left me the house.  Because she didn't want it, she didn't like living down there anyway, she was
a city gal.  So right after his funeral, she moved out and so we immediately put the house in
Middleport up for sale because we didn't want to have to heat both houses.  We didn't dare not
heat the house on the Day Road, so we put our house in Middleport up for sale, and luckily we
sold it, and we moved to the Day Road in December of 1954.  He had died in October.  We were
lucky to sell that as quickly as we did.


JV: So were you excited to go back to the house where you lived?

JG: Yes, because we needed the room.  The kids - David had a little bitty small bedroom in
Middleport, and the girls were in one room.  And when Bonnie was a baby, her crib was out in
sort of a hall, and then when Barbara was born, Bonnie had to go in the other room, so there were
three girls in that room, and Barbara was in the crib.  So it was much better, we had the four
bedrooms, and it worked out much better.  And then it wasn't too long after we moved there, you
see, David was ten, and we fixed the attic.  There was a whole big attic over the whole house and
we fixed the front of the attic up, and that was his room.  And that was great because he was
away from everybody and all the girls, because he was happy.  No, it worked out much better,
and it was that much closer to Buffalo too.  Besides which, there wasn't a heck of a lot more
mortgage left on it, because he'd lived there for quite a few years and had gotten the mortgage
down, so it wasn't quite as bad a mortgage to pay.  Besides which, we had the money from the
other house, which there again wasn't an awful lot, but in those days it helped.  And we managed
to lived there three or four years before we got into debt again when we started remodeling the
place (laughs).  It was the story of our life, we'd finish paying one thing and started another.


JV: So you finished paying off that house a few years after and then you remodeled it?

JG: No, I don't think we really finished paying it off, but we just rewrote the mortgage and had a
bigger mortgage, that's all.  This is the story of one's life, to pretty much a degree.


JV: So Grandpa started his own business because he didn't like working for his own firm, Pete
Marwick, is that what it was called? (Yep.)  How long had he been wanting to do that, what
made him finally...

JG: Well, it took him - they merged in '63, and it took him 5 years.  He'd had the idea for a
couple years that he was going to do something, but it took a lot of finagling, because he had to
have clients, and he had to get Pete Marwick to agree to let him take some of these clients with
him.  Mostly, he took the ones that weren't the greatest paying ones anyway, but we managed. 
He got a good deal out of it, it was ok.  It took a long time to do and to work out, but we did it.


JV: So they let him take some of their...

JG: Yeah, he started out with clients that he had been working with for a good many years, and
added to them, that's all.  And he took this one man who worked for Pete Marwick, he'd worked
for Graft Cutting too, he went to Pete Marwick with him, and Roger was an excellent accountant. 
He was real good, and Bob was the tax man.  So they made a good team work-wise, but
personality-wise, they didn't.  They did not have the same ideas, Roger was much more
aggressive financially than Robert was, and they did not get along too well that way.  In fact, they
ended up very much against one another when they finally retired.


JV: So they stayed together the whole time until....

JG: Oh yeah, and Roger was not a CPA, so he couldn't be a partner when they started.  So Bob
had to start as a proprietorship, and he promised Roger, and Roger took a good chance when he
went with him, because he didn't know whether Bob was going to make a success of it.  But he
came with him.  And he got along on just dregs in the beginning, and Robert promised him that
when he passed his CPA exams, that he'd take him in as a partner, and he did.  At that state, that
was '72 that that happened, and he wasn't too sure that he really wanted him, but he promised
him, so he did it.  And that's when Roger began getting real raunchy, because he didn't like the
way Rob ran the business.  He wasn't aggressive enough as far as getting new clients, and billing,
and Roger wanted to make money, because Roger had six kids, younger than our kids, and a wife
who was on his back constantly, who ended up divorcing him.  But they did make a good
combination work-wise, because Roger was an excellent accountant.  He did all of the... I can't
tell you the word that I wanted to say - audits.  He did all the audits.  Robert did all the income
tax returns, most of them anyway, all of the tax returns for the businesses.  Roger did the yearly
audits to figure out how much money they made that they had to pay tax on, and then Robert
would do the tax work.  Roger audited all the business, and he would take the younger employees
with him and supervise them doing the audits.  That's just the grit work, before they get the
profits.  Sort of a crude way of describing it, I guess.  Grandpa probably wouldn't like to hear me
say it, but that's what it means to an outsider.  Which I generally was, because he was - that was
another thing.  I worked in the office because we couldn't afford anybody, but he was always
very, very fussy about - I never could look at any of the records or anything.  He did the tax
returns for both of the doctors that I worked for, and I had no idea what those doctors did and
how much money those doctors made, because that was not my business, and he wouldn't even
talk to me about it.  And he was very conscientious about it, he meant it, he thought that way and
he meant it.  And I think people knew that.  Very ethical.


JV: Did the business start bringing in more after....

JG: Oh yeah, I think, like I said, we were comfortable, we did ok.  He could have made a lot
more money, but he didn't care.  He was doing what he liked doing, and that kept him happy. 
We weren't exactly social people.  We tried joining the Country Club one time, which was the
elite of Lockport.  And it didn't last very long because number one, he didn't play golf, and I
wouldn't play golf without him.  The kids hated the pool because they always felt that other
people were looking down their noses at them.  And we just weren't social people.  Our social
life mostly centered around his business and the business associates.  Because I wasn't too
socially minded either.  As far as we were concerned, it worked out real well.  But Roger needed
more money, because he had young kids, his wife - they did not get along, they were going to be
divorced.  He was involved with another woman, and he just needed more money.  And that's
where the rift started.  But I think that it all worked out eventually ok because one of the last
people that came to see him, it was in the fall of '93, Roger and his wife then - he's died since -
they used to go to Maine every summer.  He had a client up there who had a summer place, and
they went up there and he did a lot of the tax work while he was there.  And they stopped on their
way back home, they drove, and they stopped on their way home to see him, and he
acknowledged them.  This was in the Veteran's, he was in then, and he acknowledged that they
were there and talked to them a little bit.  And I think it sort of helped the rift that was there. 
Roger felt good about it.  Because they both knew that they were in the wrong, but they were
both very stubborn.  He was a Swede, and Grandfather was Dutch.  But I always felt kinda good
about that.  But it was an interesting life, it was kinda different.  I didn't think so much at the
time, but I do now, looking back at it.


JV: How many employees did they have?

JG: Oh, jeepers, when he retired, they must have had 8 or 10.


JV: What did they do when they retired?

JG: The business is still going.  Roger wanted, and Robert wasn't too happy, he didn't know
whether he wanted to do it or not, but Roger asked that he be allowed to keep the name Gould
and Swanson.  Because when they became the partnership, it was Gould and Swanson.  And
Roger was smart enough to know that it was the Gould name that brought a lot of the people. 
And so he kept the name Gould and Swanson, and a year ago, a year and a half ago, Roger died. 
He was not well at all, he got to be a pretty heavy drinker.  And he wasn't well, he up and had a
heart attack one morning.  So there was a young fellow in there who had worked for them.  He
started working for Bob when he first opened, he worked that tax season of 1969, because he was
in college, he was in Conetious(?) College.  His father was also a CPA that Robert knew from
way back in Graft, Cutting, and Coit.  And Bill stayed with him all those years, passed his CPA,
and he and Roger formed a proprietorship.  And I don't know what that does as far as - well, I
guess I do know what it does.  But I would guess that Bill had a certain amount of stock, so he is
the owner/proprietor now of this proprietorship, and there is another CPA in there whom I
suspect probably has stock in it too, but it's still goes by Gould and Swanson.  I would suspect
that before too long they'll merge, because, well, Bill's getting up there in years.  He must have
graduated in '70, and he was 18, so that's - he's 40-something.  He's got two boys, his wife died
very suddenly three or four years ago.  And so he's bringing up two young boys.  I don't know of
anybody that he's been going with, but I hope he remarries.  I've just got a hunch they'll merge
before too long.  But I keep in touch with him, we talk every once in a while.  I told you the story
about what he said about Grandpa and the computer.  Grandpa would have a fit if he knew his
picture was on the computer.  That was Bill that said that, because he knew Robert hated
computers.  And they are all computer now, everything is computers.

A mortgage thing for me.  They figured out, you pay a mortgage, so much a month, and it
reduces every month, and so you have each figure for the amount of payment, the amount of the
interest, the amount of principal, and the balance, that's due on the mortgage, and I picked up
four or five mistakes in that dumb thing, that they made in it.  That Gould and Swanson had done
- I'm sure Bill didn't do it himself - but I picked up several mistakes in it.  I called him and told
him, and they did it over again.


JV: It would be interesting to talk to Bill and have some stories about when he first started the
business, and impressions or stories of Grandpa, and his work.

JG: Oh, there's a few stories, but I've said enough.





Chapter 9 - In-Laws & More Married Life


JV: Tell me about how you got along with your in-laws, and how Robert got along with your
parents, that sort of thing.

JG: Well, I gave you an inkling of that the other day.  


JV: Especially when you were first married and getting to know each other, and that sort of thing.

JG: We did live with them right in the beginning for a while.  Well, in the very beginning, when
we came back from New York State from Connecticut, we lived with Bob's mother and father in
Geneva.  And I worked for a while until I started this fooling around trying to abort and having
miscarriages and all that stuff.  So we were back and forth between Lockport and Geneva quite a
bit.  But I got along very well with Bob's father, but anybody could get along with him.  He was
a real doll.  We never had any real altercations, his mother and I, but I smoked at that time, and
she was very much against that.  She never said anything to my face, but she did say things that I
happened to hear, and she was very unhappy about the whole thing.  And looking back on it, I
can't blame her.  I was polluting her house!  And I was.  When you smoke, you don't smell it, but
it doesn't take very long to get un-used to the smell.  So I really couldn't blame her for that, and
she really was pretty good to me.  She was very into herself and all her problems and un-
wellness, but basically she accepted me very well.  As far as my mother and Robert were
concerned, my mother was very outspoken about what she didn't like about Robert, and she let
him know about it.  He was pretty good with her, he didn't - I mean, he'd get angry and upset,
especially with the way she, as far as he was concerned, spoiled David.  But basically she
accepted him.  She got very angry when I was pregnant with Bonnie, because she just thought I
was having too many kids.  And she expressed very clearly what she thought should happen to
Robert.  It amused me, because this was when I was working.  I told you, I worked nights in the
delivery room.  And I used to stop there on Saturday mornings because it's the only time I'd see
them.  So I'd stop on Saturday morning and have breakfast, because my father was always home. 
She made this remark one morning, and my father looked at her, and he said, "Really, ...(?) that
is none of your business."  


JV: What was the remark that she said?

JG: She said, "You should cut it off!"  She never minced words.  She said exactly what she
thought.  Bless my father, he may have thought it, but he never said it.  And of course my father
and I always got along.  And Bob and my father got along, but men are much easier to get along
with as far as in-laws and stuff are concerned than women, you know that.  You see it, there isn't
any family that you don't see it in.  But it's interesting.


JV: So she just thought that four was way too many?

JG: Oh yes.  And it's a good thing that she wasn't around when I got pregnant with Barbara, or
she really would have blown.  But she only had two of us, of course.  And she had a rough time
with me.  If she was born in 1887, and I wasn't born until 1920, that was 33 for her second one. 
Of course, your mother was 33, but they didn't do that back then.  You had your kids when you
were younger.  I was 33 when Barbara was born too.  But, maybe that's one reason it bothered
her because I was getting older, and she knew what a rough time she had with me.  I'm sure I was
a mistake, I don't think they really planned on me.


JV: All the different times that you lived with them, they always had a lot to say about what you
were doing?

JG: No, just once in a while.  I mean, they never complained if he wasn't working.  They never
complained about when he was in school, and they helped us a lot.  Not necessarily cash wise,
but they gave us all sorts of food and support.  Help with the kids, and they never complained - or
put it this way - they were always willing to take the kids when it was necessary.  It was '47,
early '48, Bob's father was very ill, and they had moved up to Watertown, no, up around
Watertown with Bob's mother's brother because his wife had died and they used to have students
from the college live there.  And they were girls, and they didn't like the idea of just having
Uncle Charlie there, so Bob's mother and father sold their house and moved up there so that
Nanna would be sort of the house mother kind of thing.  Anyway, Bob's father became very ill
and had to be moved to the neurological institute in Montreal.  So Bob and I went up there.  We
took David because he was old enough to travel, but your mother we left with a couple who lived
down the porch from us at Niagara, and my mother took Linda because she was just a tiny baby
and in a crib all the time, and she didn't have to chase her around.  She couldn't have handled
Sharon, because Sharon was a toddler.  So they were always very willing to help, and Bob's
mother and father too, only we weren't as close to them, so there wasn't the opportunity.  I have
no complaints, and I really don't think Robert had any real complaints about my mother, they'd
just bicker back and forth.  He used to call her Lini, he never called her mom.  Her name was
Lina, and he called her Lini.  It didn't bother her.  I really can't ever remember her being terribly
critical of him, and he was extremely patient and understanding and good with her when she was
so sick and down at our house.  That was kind of a chore, because - well, he still wasn't working
with Pete Marwick, so he wasn't working the long hours, but she had to be downstairs, because
number one we couldn't get her upstairs and back and forth all the time, so she was right in the
middle of the house in the dining room.  We had a studio couch, and that's where she slept.  And
he was really very patient about it, and never complained.  He never complained a bit, he was
glad to do it.  So I have no room for complaint, and I don't think anybody else does either.  And
as far as Bob's father, you know, he lived with us from 1960 until 1968.  He was real easy to
have around, up until the last end when began to get senile, because he was 87.  But he was
always willing to do anything.  He used to take my washing, I had the washer in the kitchen.  So I
would do a load of wash in the morning, and he would drag it upstairs to the attic - heavy, wet
clothes - hang them up in the attic, and then when they were dry bring them down for me.  He
always did that.  And he did all the work outside that he could handle, and he used to come in in
the summertime because he had just a little fringe of hair around his ears and around the back. 
And he'd come in and there would be little lines of blood streaking all down from his hair line
where the fruit flies would bite him.  He was just used to it, didn't bother him.  He'd just wipe it
off.  Because he liked to be outdoors, he always gardened.  He always did all the gardening when
they lived in Geneva.  He dug up Grandma's azaleas, she had.  No, not azaleas, I'll tell you in a
little while.  But anyway, she had these big, big flowers, and they had to be dug up in the fall,
replanted in the spring, he did all of that. all of the marking and everything.  He was a very
patient man.  The only time I ever got really impatient with him was when I'd come home from
work, he always wanted to be there so he could do anything that I needed done.  And if I'd sweep
the floor, he was always there with a dustpan to hold for me to sweep.  And I used to get so irked
about it, and I don't know why, but I just did.  I figured that was something I could do by myself. 
But that's the kind of person he was, he just wanted to do anything he could for anybody.  And at
that stage, he was sort of limited in what he could do, so what he could do he wanted to do. 
That's the only thing I could really ever find to complain about with him.  He was a good guy, he
really was.  And fortunately, Bob was a combination of his mother and his father.  He got his
temper from his mother, with a little bit added on his own, but his basic goodness and concern
for other people he got from his father.  So he was a good combination, if you could overlook the
temper, which I did.  I had to.  Sometimes it would really flare, but he could have a lot worse
faults, I used to tell the kids.  I repeat, I think we had a pretty good life, I really do.  And I think I
miss him more now than I did right after he died.  But I wrote that in that thing that I wrote,
because I mourned the loss of Robert from 1985 until he died, actually.  Because from that time
on, he was not the Robert that I married.  So when he died, it was in a lot of ways a relief,
because I didn't have to hurt for him anymore.  And he didn't have to hurt for himself, because
he did.  I know that he knew what was going on and that he was not himself.  I'm sure he knew
it, and that's why it bothered him so and he wanted to die.  Because I told you he used to get
himself out of that bed, and he'd say, I'd ask him, "Why do you do that, Robert?" "Because I
want to die!  Kill myself!"  So, what else do you want to know about our life?  Probably a lot of
things.  You were asking about vacations yesterday, and I was thinking.  A lot of it was centered
around business, and we used to go on all these conventions.  We went all over the place.  We
went to Puerto Rico, we went to a good convention in New York, we went to Hawaii, we went to
Mexico.  And they were all business connected.  We used to go with this couple in Rochester that
had...  Bob owned his own business, and my Bob was the accountant and tax man, and he used to
go in that capacity with Robert.  And of course the wives went along too, so I just cashed in on
that.  We had a real good time, and I didn't have to worry, because I didn't really have to put on
any airs or anything because nobody knew me and didn't give a darn who I was anyway.  So I
could just be myself and enjoy myself, and I did.  Had a good time.


JV: Was that when the kids were older, and they could take care of themselves?

JG: Yeah, but when we took the trip to Hawaii, Bonnie was in high school, and she pretty much
babysat.  She and Barbara were alone.  Of course, the people across the street knew that they
were alone, and we just didn't have to worry.  They had the dog, that's when we had a police
dog.  And your Grandpa left a check for Bonnie, a signed check in case she needed anything in a
hurry.  And when we came back, she had written the check for a million dollars to Bonnie Gould. 
Rob kept that for the longest time.  They were old enough that they were all right.  Like I've said
so many times before, times were different.  Thirty years makes a lot of difference.  I wouldn't
leave kids nowadays.  Even though she was 18.


JV: What about any of your other trips?

JG: We didn't - I used to go to New York with him sometimes when he'd go down on business. 
But I really can't, except the trip to Australia that we did in '72, because David was over there
then.  There's one trip that stands out that we took as a family when Barbara was real small, we
drove to Vermont to visit this cousin on Nanna Gould's side that he was very fond of.  The main
thing I remember about that is Barbara, we had this big Ford stationwagon, and back then, we
had a big mattress in the back, and all the kids would either sleep or play or whatever on the
mattress, no seatbelts or anything, you know.  And it was a real hectic time for a while because
Barbara got sick.  She was throwing up all over the place.  We ended up taking her, it was up in
the mountains in Vermont, and we ended up taking her down to the little stream and giving her a
complete bath, washing her head, and everything, because she was such a mess.  But everybody
survived.  They got very angry with her of course, because she was throwing up, but she couldn't
help it.  But most trips were pretty easy going.  I took one trip with Barbara when she was a baby
because I guess I thought I needed to get away for some reason or another.  And Robert took the
other kids, it must have been in the summer because Barbara was born in October, so it was the
summer, spring and summer of '54.  Barbara and I flew out to St. Louis because Jim and Betty
Lindsey lived out there then.  Jim and Betty Lindsey, incidentally, are the ones who took care of
Sharon when we went to that trip up in Plattsburg when Grandpa was sick. And Robert took the
other kids, a friend of ours had a little trailer that you could pop up the tent part of it so the kids
could sleep in that, and he took a trip up north in New York State, took the kids along with him. 
And that was when Bonnie learned that you didn't take things away from the store without
paying for them, because she snagged onto a package of gum, and her father made her take it
back.  She still remembers it, we were talking about it not too long ago.  So he pretty much kept
pretty good track of them.  The kids sort of dreaded the trip, I think, according to some of them
later.  Your mother will remember it, ask her sometime.  She'd remember it more than I do.  But
those are really the only ones right now that I can remember.  


JV: You had to work at different times when you had kids.  Was that hard on you to have to work
those times?

JG: The only time I ever had to work was the one I told you, when I was pregnant with Bonnie
when Bob was going to lose his job.  Now, when Barbara started kindergarten, I went back to
work because I just didn't have enough to do.  Well, it was a hardship once in a while, maybe,
but the kids were very well adjusted to it.  They knew what the had to do, and they did it.  If they
didn't remember or didn't know when they came home from school, they'd call me.  And they
always had supper started when I came home.  I had figured out what we were going to have, and
they knew what they could start, and they did it.  I don't consider I had any problems.  


JV: Was it hard - did you have many friends that were working at that time?  Was it something
that women were just starting to do?

JG: No, because a lot of them didn't work.  But you see, Barbara started school in '58.  She was
born in '53, and she was going to be 5 in October and she started school in September.  And I
had been busy enough because we started remodeling the house practically when we moved in.  I
was trying to figure that out last night, and I honestly can't remember how the sequence of what
we did and what we did first.  But I did a lot of the painting, and I'd rip wallpaper off, and I kept
busy doing things like that.  But by the time Barbara went to school, we had most of that done.  I
really didn't have that many friends in Lockport, they were still in Middleport.  About the only
contact and socializing we did was through stuff at church.  And Bob went to rotary down there,
he still kept on with Rotary for a while.  But like I said, I managed - I still kept up with that group
of girls that we played bridge with.  When we first moved from Middleport up to Lockport,
David had a paper route, and it was in the wintertime of course, and there wasn't anybody that
wanted to take over a morning paper route in the wintertime.  So Bob and I used to take him back
and forth to Middleport every morning to deliver his papers.  So that kept us busy for a while,
and it was just things like that - traipsing the kids back and forth to activities and things, that I
didn't have any problem keeping busy, and I never got bored.  But when the kids were all in
school, I had all day long, and it drove me nuts.  So I just decided I had to go back to work.  But
not of necessity.  It was nice because I had a little money to fool around with - I only earned $50
a week - and at that time, you know, I could do quite a bit with it - but it really wasn't a necessity
that I worked. 


JV: What job did you get again?

JG: I worked in the doctor's office.  I worked with Dr. Barry first, and I worked for the bank with
his executor, because his wife was not well at all, and so after he died I moved all the stuff from
his office, we moved it all down to a building that the bank had, and I cleaned up all the
outstanding accounts and got rid of records and stuff like that.  So I worked with them for quite a
while until I went to work for Dr. M(?)


JV: So did you work for them as a nurse, or....

JG: The doctors, yeah.  Mostly, and receptionist, I mean, I did pretty much all the office work
too.


JV: How much had changed in nursing and that sort of thing from when you'd been a nurse
before?

JG: Not that much.  Not that I had that much contact with hospital work, but the doctors were
still pretty - they had a few specialists, but most of them were GPs, which is what I was used to,
General Practitioners, what they called Family Physicians now.  No, it wasn't until the 70s, late
70s and 80s that things really began to change a lot as far as nursing itself was concerned.  The
70s is when they started the two-year nursing courses, and because of all of the new medicine
and research that was going on, people began not staying in the hospital as long as they did
before.  But we used to have people who would be in the hospital for months.  It's kinda
unbelievable, but I honestly can't remember - although yes, I do remember from the time even
when we were married we had hospital insurance.  I had hospital insurance when I went to
Presbyterian, and I kept that same coverage because I could convert it to married couples, and I
kept that same coverage for several years until Bob went to work for Graft, Cutting, and Coit. 
They had their own insurance setup with Blue Cross and Blue Shields, and that's when we went
into Blue Cross and Blue Shields, and we've been with it ever since.  We never changed.  If we
went from one - like, we went from Graft Cutting to Pete Marwick, it was still Blue Cross and
Blue Shields.  And I still have it.  They had good coverage.  The only - of course, it never cost me
anything for doctors because I worked for them, and they never charged us anything.  All of the
delivery for all five of those kids never cost me a cent.  The hospital insurance paid, I mean, they
accepted what the hospital insurance paid, and it never cost us a cent to have those kids, hospital-
wise or doctor-wise.  That's why we could live on $300 a month!  Which you can't do anymore. 
I know, it's hard to believe, and it's hard - Dr. Barry was the kind of doctor who believed pretty
much like Robert believed.  If people were well off and they had a lot of money, he billed them,
because he figured they were able to pay for the people who couldn't pay.  He would make house
calls to people down in what we used to call "Lower Town" who were very poor people,
sometimes on welfare, sometimes just eking along - he never charged them anything.  Half the
time he didn't even bill them.  But people who had the means and the income, they are the ones
that paid for it.  Not all doctors, but a lot of them, operated that way then.  And that's they way
Robert operated, because he would never really go after - I don't think he ever put any money
that people owed him in a collector's hands.  Once in a while, Dr. Barry would.  But Robert
never did.  If he didn't collect it, he didn't collect it.  And he retired from that business with
people owing him a lot of money.


JV: My mom (Sharon) told me once that about Grandpa (Robert), that if he had collected what
people owed him a lot of times, that...

JG: We would have been well off. We'll put it this way, much better off than we were.  I never
considered at any time that we were poor, but like I said before, he didn't care about money that
much, he didn't really have any desire to be rich, to be well off.  And I admit it used to irk me
sometimes, because I think a lot of people used him.  I can think of a lot of people - and they
were people who lived well, you know, the Country Club crowd - and lived way what we used to
call "high on the hog," and it didn't bother them that they owed Robert money.  And he died with
a lot of people owing him money.  But I never would go after them either.  In the first place, he
didn't keep good enough records, so I couldn't prove any.  And a lot of that stuff he just
destroyed.  To each his own, I guess.


JV: Let me ask you this, going back to parenting and that sort of thing, what were your attitudes
towards parenting, say, a parenting philosophy.  Did you think about that a lot back then?

JG: We just did what we had to do.  Bob was a stickler as far as kids minding.  Sometimes I felt
he was kind of unfair about some of the things he demanded, but basically, I don't think we ever
overrode each other too much as far as decisions were concerned.  If he told them they had to do
something, they had to do it.  Even though I didn't agree.  And he was the same with me. 
Sometimes we probably were a little strict.  But when.......

JG: When we told them to do something, they knew they had to do it.  And there wasn't a lot of
fooling around about it, they did it.  And if they didn't, they got in trouble.  That's about it,
really.  I don't really think that there was any time that I can recall worrying about not trusting
them.  I worried when they went off sometimes, but not because I didn't trust them, it was
because just that something might happen.  But I always trusted them.  I never worried that
they'd do something they weren't supposed to do.  Now, maybe I was too naive about it, I don't
know, but considering the way they all turned out, I don't think we were too wrong.  I indicated,
and I'm sure I said, my mother felt that Robert was way too strict.  And your mother, having the
personality that she had, I think she was affected a lot more by her father than some of the other
kids were.  Bonnie still remembers, and Bonnie was very special to Robert because she was so
smart.  Well, Sharon was too.  But maybe that's the reason he was rougher on them, I don't
know.  But Bonnie remembers very vividly some things that I don't remember.  Bonnie still
remembers things that she resents, and yet she adored her father, she really did.  I think that they
all eventually, I don't really know how to explain it.  Even though they resented and did not feel
that they were probably treated as they should have been, that he was altogether too strict, I think
that their basic love for him overrode it.  And your mother has said that she's forgiven him.  I
don't think she holds that much grudge against things anymore.  But she told me about a lot of
things that I didn't even either know at the time, or if I did know, I had forgotten - about things
that happened Saturdays, because I used to have to work Saturdays.  And father was home, and
that was bad, that was bad.  Well, I remember one time - I can't remember what she had done,
but Robert thought she had lied to him - this was Bonnie.  He thought that she lied to him, I
think, but anyway, he had to go to Rochester on business, he was having lunch, and he made
Bonnie ride down - it was a hot summer day - and he made her ride to Rochester with him, sit in
the car while he had lunch with this guy, and I was very upset about that.  Bonnie has never
forgotten it, because it was very, very harsh treatment, I thought.  But he just wasn't going to
tolerate it.  Now whether or it was an actual lie, I can't remember.  All I remember was the
punishment, that I didn't feel that it fit the crime.  But there again, I don't think there's any
family going that can't come up with some things that they figure they did wrong.  Maybe not too
awful much wrong, but there are things that you do wrong that you shouldn't.  You
misunderstand, you misjudge, your anger gets in the way.  But basically, you try to be fair.


JV: When you say they got in trouble, what kinds of other things were done as punishment -
getting in trouble, were they grounded, stuff like that?

JG: I think probably they were grounded sometimes.  But I've said many times maybe I've just
blocked it out, maybe I was too naive, I don't know.  But I don't think we really ever had too
many problems with them.  I can remember certain instances - I can remember bringing your
mother up on the grass in front of the house in Middleport and taking down her pants and
spanking her because she was whittling her doll buggy up and down the middle of the street, and
I had told her no, she wasn't to do that.  There was a sidewalk that she was supposed to walk on,
but she liked the middle of the street.  And I can remember spanking her for that, because I had
told her no, and she just went ahead and did it anyway.  But all kids do things like that.  That's
why I think that when I said they knew we meant it, that it's things like that that I think taught
them.  I didn't hurt her.  I hurt her pride when I spanked her, I mean, I wasn't really angry.  I just
spanked her because I thought she needed it because she did something she wasn't supposed to
do.  And she had been told.  I can tell you of another instance that I don't think was very fair, and
Linda remembers this one.  We had a round, one of those plastic pools, and I can't remember all
the details, except that the gal next door who had kids our kids' age.  The kids had gone over
there after school because I wasn't home, and it had been arranged, it was ok, but Bob had told
the kids that they were not to go in the pool until we were home.  Well, Vivian didn't know that,
and Vivian told the kids that they could go in because it was where she could see them, and they
couldn't get hurt in that thing anyway.  But it was the fact that Bob told them that they couldn't
go in the pool.  He didn't wait to find out that Vivian had said they could go in.  He came home,
and Linda was in the water, and he spanked her.  And she's always felt that it was very unfair. 
And it was when you know all the circumstances, but the point is that he had told her not to go
in, and that's what he knew, and she did it anyway, and that's why he spanked her.  And he was
in the right.  Granted, he didn't find out all the details, which he should have, and then he
wouldn't have been in the right, but with what he knew, he I think he had a legitimate reason to
spank her.  But there again, we all act on impulse sometimes, and it did not hurt her physically,
but it hurt her pride, because she just didn't think it was fair that he spanked her.  And in a way,
she was right, but he was too.  So, I mean, we had instances like that, and there are very few that
I remember.  And that's probably why I say that I don't think that we had a real great problem
with the kids. 


JV: Do you remember any times when your nursing degree came in handy with the kids?

JG: Oh, I'm sure, yes, I think the most help I had from it was in taking care of my mother.  I'm
trying to think of anything real serious that happened to the kids.  This is really sort of funny,
because I should have been the one to do it, but it was Robert that did it.  We went to Canada,
and we went over in the boat to the island.  Barbara jumped out of the boat and went tearing up
the dock, and she slipped or tripped or something at the end of the dock, and her toe got caught in
the slats in the dock and she dislocated her big toe.  So here she is looking down at this toe that's
sticking right up straight or hanging down, I don't know which, but Robert got there first and he
knew what had happened so he just pulled the thing and put it back in joint.  And it hurt terribly
when he did it, but he was the one that had the sense to do it, I probably never could have done it. 
If it was one of my own kids...  And they always said that you shouldn't take care of your own
kids because it's too emotional a thing.  You can't be detached, you're too close to it, and you
don't have all your facilities functioning properly, it can happen that you don't.  Some people
may be cold enough that they can do it, but most mothers, it's their babies and they're hurt.  I had
a terrible time when Sharon was in the hospital when she had her appendix out because she got
so homesick.  And I just couldn't handle her at all, I couldn't stand to see her that way.  No, they
always said you should never try to take care of your own children if they had any real serious
things happen.  David had a greenstick fracture once when he was real little, that's when we lived
up at the fort, and I knew enough to mobilize the thing - or immobilize it and call the doctor. 
Right offhand I can think of no other serious things that happened to the kids medically.  Bonnie
had whooping cough very, very badly.  David had a bad attack of asthma.  But I was hospital
oriented at that point, and we just got him to the hospital.  I don't know what I would have done
now.  And I'll tell you, frankly, if anything happened now, I would not trust myself to do
anything.  You know, with little kids, I just wouldn't.  I probably did then, but I honestly don't
remember any really bad injuries or anything that they had.  I guess we were just lucky.  They
never fell out of any windows or anything.  Harry Model(?) that I was telling you about, one of
their kids, their boy fell out of a second story window, and his hearing was impaired ever after. 
In fact, he's pretty much stone deaf now.  But we never had any things happen like that that were
real serious.  If we did, we must have taken care of them and didn't think they were all that
serious.  That's why I said, I think we were very, very fortunate.  And I mean it, I really do. 
Because at times, I just don't think I would have been able to cope with it.  I don't know how I
would have managed with anybody like Larene.  I don't know how I would have handled it.  I
think I know exactly what your mother's going through, because she doesn't know how to handle
it either, nobody does.  So I repeat, we were blessed.  Does that tell you enough about that I don't
remember very much?  You know, you'd think that living the way we did on a farm, or in the
country, and they were always messing around in the barn and going upstairs, they could have
fallen down and broken their neck, but they didn't.  I will say that I think Bob always instilled in
them the importance of being careful and watching, probably more than I did.  But they got it
from someplace.  Could have been some, as far as David is concerned, from my father, because
he was 10 when my father died, so he got a lot from my father when he was little.  Because he
was with my father more than he was with his own father, up until when we moved, but then he
still was with them an awful lot.  He worshiped my father, and it was reciprocated.  And my
father got the benefit of that, because he never was as close to my brother.  So you see history
repeating itself, because look at how your father is with Christopher.  So it's interesting.  I think
that when children are very small, grandparents are a great influence.


JV: So what was a typical day like for you when your kids were young?

JG: Well, Bonnie and Barbara both went to nursery school, partly because they didn't have other
kids to play with when the other kids went to school.  Sharon and Linda were close enough, and
we had neighbors that the kids played back and forth with, but Bonnie and Barbara didn't have
that because there was three years difference between them, but Barbara was little enough when
Bonnie went to school, Bonnie went to nursery school because she missed Sharon and Linda. 
And then Barbara went because she missed Bonnie.  The beginning of the day was getting the
kids on the bus, because they always had to go early - 7:15 they had to be on the bus, all three of
them.  Then I had to take Bonnie to nursery school, probably 9:00 or so.  Then I had a step-sister
who had a youngster that was Barbara's age.  So I'd stop there, and Barbara and Patty would play
together until I had to go get Bonnie.  Well, then my morning was ruined, so if I had any work to
do I had to do it in the afternoon.  And that worked out, because Barbara would come home and
go to bed, and Bonnie too when she was in nursery school, and they'd take a nap until the kids
came home, and then when the kids came home, they had to watch the two little ones so I could
get my stuff done that I had to do, like washing and ironing and all that garbage, getting dinner. 
It was pretty much routine, and I think that's probably one thing that made life easier then, we
were more organized, and things were done routinely.  There wasn't all the distraction.  We
never had the television on during the day.  The kids could watch their programs at night after
they had all their stuff done, but I never watched it.  When the kids got older and in school and
I'd quit working or I'd have a day off or something, I can't remember how I got into the soap
operas, but I did watch soap operas for a while.  And then I got into an exercise deal that I
exercised every morning, I had my own little exercise ...(?) and I exercised.  But I can't
remember whether that was - that was probably right after the kids were all started in school
because I didn't start working for Dr. Barry until - except to just fill in - until his regular gal quit,
and I think that was probably around '59.  So I had time in there like I didn't before, and I always
could find some new project like, you know, painting a room or tearing off wallpaper or taking
paint off, or something that I liked to do.  Then when the kids were smaller, before we moved on
the Day Road, I sewed a lot.  I always used to make the kids clothes.  The girls' dresses.  I didn't
make too much for David except when he was real small, but I always - most always, for several
years - made the kids Easter outfits.  I just managed to keep busy, and I think that's probably one
reason it's so hard for me to not do anything now.  I feel guilty when I sit and read all day,
because I'm not doing anything productive.  I still feel that I ought to do something worthwhile,
part of the time, anyway.  I'm getting up there, I'm getting so it doesn't bother me quite so much. 
I'm not minding it anywhere near as much, not at all.


JV: Did you do much gardening, outside work, that sort of thing?

JG: No, I really wasn't that much of an.... I had sunflowers, but not to many.  I was more a knitter
and a sewer, or crewel.  That's how I got Sharon to do that thing [points to a wall hanging - a
piece with the letters from A to Z with pictures] because I love to do crewel.  And I sent that -
she was having a rough time, but I can't remember which one of the kids - you were little - but
she was having a rough time for some reason or another.


JV: I think it was when Larene was a baby, possibly Rosanne.

JG: But I was so proud of her, when she entered it in the fair that year and won a blue ribbon on
it.  I think it was in Sandy, and she got a blue ribbon on it.


JV: Now, what's that called?

JG: Crewel.


JV: Just like embroidery?

JG: Yeah, crewel is a type of embroidery.


JV: So you did that a lot too?

JG: Yeah, I did a lot of different things for the kids.  I used to like to do latch hook - you know
those latch hook rugs?  I did a lot of those.  You have a tool, it's a canvas thing with holes in it,
and there's designs printed on it, and then you use different color yarns.  It's a hook, it's like a
hook rug, only they call it latch hook because it's little pieces of yarn that you use and so they
call it that.  I did several of those, I liked to do that.  In fact, I was looking for some because I
think I could do that easier than I can quilt.  I'm having a terrible time getting the quilts done. 
I've got Terri's finished - it's done, but it's not quilted.  It's all put together and the backing's on
it and everything, but I'm trying to find somebody to quilt it, and I'm not doing too well.  So I
don't know what I'm going to be able to do about that.  But I've got Allison's almost done, and I
don't know whether I'm gonna to finish that either.  But I've got to get myself disciplined and try
to get at least the front of it put together.  If I can't get the rest of it, maybe do something.  It's
very, and I don't know why - part of it is handling the thing.  But I'm having a very rough time
getting it put together.  I think part of it is because it's so difficult to see the needle and the
thread, and I'm always unthreading the stupid needles, and it takes twice as long to thread the
needles as normal, and it just tires me out completely to do it.  I'm procrastinating.  It's not an
absolute necessity that I do it, that's about what it amounts to.  It's not a matter of life and death -
if I don't get it done, I don't get it done.  However, it will make me feel very badly.


JV: When did you guys first get a TV?

JG: Not until everybody else in the neighborhood had one.


JV: Got the first phone and the last TV?

JG: Well, we always had a phone, we had the only phone up there at the fort.  Well, phones were
restricted then too.  Not restricted, but they were more difficult to get.  Besides which, they were
kind of expensive when you didn't have any money.  And I can't remember exactly, but I would
say that it was probably either the Christmas of '52 or '53, but somebody said the other day that
it was Christmas that we got it.  I honestly don't remember, all I remember is the kids bitching
because we didn't have one.  "Everybody else has got one."  And then there was all the problem
when we did get one about what they could watch.  Your father was rather adamant about that
one too, that's probably where your mother gets it.


JV: What could they and couldn't they watch?

JG: Well, there were kids programs.  Mr. Rogers, and programs like that.  They didn't have all
the different cartoons that they have now, but every once in a while they would have a kids
movie, I think and some of the comedy shows - because it wasn't as raunchy in the beginning.  I
mean, the comedians that were on weren't vile and sexy and nasty in their talk.  So it wasn't
really as bad.  It was more that they would sit in front of the television rather than do anything
else, and that's basically what your mother gripes about.  If they didn't have television, they were
much more apt to read, and still believe that some of this junk that's on television is totally
ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.  In fact, I read a thing in that John Kellerman to your mother
this morning, but he was describing a news broadcast, and I can't tell you what it is, but you
would appreciate it too, I'm sure.  


JV: What about a radio, were there radio shows on that you guys liked listening to?

JG: Yeah.  In fact, I don't know who has that - I guess it's up in Canada.  We had a little radio. 
There was a small table, about like this, and it had leaves that came up on the end so you could
use it for other things, but the radio was right in the front so it looked like a draw with legs on it. 
And the kids used to lay down under that and listen to the radio programs.  And they had kids
programs, don't ask me what they were because I can't remember, but I used to do the same thing
when I was a kid.  We had this big battery thing, and they had some program on at 5:00 at night
that I always listened to.  This is going way back again, and I can remember, they had a contest
for kids to submit names for something, and I can't remember what the name was, but the prize
was a little cocker spaniel - no, poodle - and I was so sure that I had won that dog.

JG: When I didn't win that dog, my heart was broken, because I was at the same stage that
Rosanne is now [11], she wants a dog.  And my mother did not want a dog - we didn't have a
dog.  And I thought if I won that dog, I would have it because she wouldn't say no.  And she
probably wouldn't have, but I didn't win the dog and it was very heartbreaking.  I was so sure I
had.  I can remember honestly the feeling, and I cried, and I was just heartbroken.  But
eventually, we got dogs and I made up for it later on in life.


JV: About the house that you lived in on Day Road - is that the same one that your parents had
bought way back before the Depression that you lived in for a few years before?

JG: No, the one they bought before the depression was when I was little, 5 years old, and my
father had been in the bakery so they could afford it, and they bought this little house.  And the
one on the Day Road is the one that they bought, well, they bought it in 1945 because my father
wanted to be able to have a garden and a small farm operation because he loved chicken, he
loved animals, and pigs, and he wanted to have something to do when he retired.  Bless his heart,
he never got to retire.  But that was the reason, and they had moved back into that house on
Regent Street, the one that they bought originally in the 1920s.  And from there they bought the
one on the Day Road.  So they lived there from 1946 to when he died in '54.  Wasn't really an
awful long time, was it?  It amazes me when I think, my father and mother both were really quite
young when they died.  Because I sure didn't feel very old at 60.  When I think back, gee.  My
mother was 60, they were both 61.  She died in '51, and he died in '54.


JV: So he remarried after she died?

JG: Yep, she died in '51 and he remarried in August of '52.  So he wasn't remarried very long
either.


JV: How did he meet her?

JG: Well, they knew each other because she belonged to the same church, and was part of that
group.  Her husband had died several years before that, and she was the telephone operator at
Harrison's because when her husband died she had two kids, she had two girls.  And he didn't
leave anything at all, she had to work.  So she got the job as telephone operator at Harrison's, and
she worked there from the time her kids were little until she married my father. 


JV: How long had her husband been dead?

JG: A long time, because Mary was my age, I think Mary's a year younger than I am.  Mary was
probably about 8 or 9 when he died.  Betty was a couple years younger.  And she fortunately
could live with her mother and father, and so her mother and father took care of the girls when
they were little so she could work.  I think she and her husband lived with them anyway, her
husband was not a real go-getter, I guess - I remember him vaguely, but just vaguely.  And I
don't know whether before she married whether she was a telephone operator or not, I don't
know.  I remember her when I was a young kid.  And of course, when he went back to
Harrison's, he ran into her because she was still working there because he didn't start in
Harrison's until '40 or '41.  


JV: What did he do there?

JG: He ran the blueprint department.  I know it was through knowing somebody in Harrison's,
one of the guys higher up in the plant that he knew that got him the job.


JV: What is the blueprint department?

JG: Well, blueprints are like Xerox copies, they were on material instead of film and stuff, x-
rays.  They were the plans that they followed, and Harrison's was the radiator part of General
Motors.  They made all the radiators for General Motors cars in the beginning.  It started out as a
small local operation, and then they got - and I don't know what they made, actually, probably
radiators for something else - but I guess what they did was get the contract from General Motors
to make the radiators for General Motors' cars, and then they just grew from there, because look
at the way the cars grew.  But it was a real old, locally started, and that's where a lot of people in
Lockport made their money.  There were Harrisons, and that's what it was called in the
beginning, Harrison Radiator.  He asked me before he married her what I would think of her. He
said, "What would you think if Helen and I got married?" And I said, "Well, fine.  It would make
you happy, you wouldn't be alone."  And he said, "And you could accept her all right?"  I said,
"Sure."  But it was fairly soon after my mother died, I'm sure that's why.  But he was very
lonesome, there's no reason why he shouldn't.


JV: Did you get to know your step-sisters very well?

JG: Yeah.  We did a lot together.  Helen's granddaughter was married on the Day Road, that was
Mary's step-daughter.  She married a guy who had been married before and had a daughter.  No,
we got along fine.  The only reason I didn't end up being overly friendly with them was because -
I don't know whether I should even tell you.  But my father had left Helen his insurance.  And
Bob and I borrowed that money from her, and paid her so much a month, we paid the interest for
it every month.  And she ended up in the hospital, and she needed - she really should have gone
in a nursing home.  And I said, we hadn't paid her back yet, and I said, "We'll pay you that
money, put her in a nursing home."  "Well, we would be using up all that money then."  But the
thing, what really happened was that when we borrowed that money from Helen, it gave her
some income on that money because we paid her more interest than she could get in the bank. 
And she said when we borrowed it, and she had it in her will at one point, that we would keep on
paying her interest on that money, and when she died it was going to go back to me because it
was originally from my father.  Well, they wouldn't take it to put her in a nursing home, and
before she died, they got another lawyer and said that she had changed her will and needed that
money.  So we paid it back before she died.  She lived with Betty, the younger one, so they got
her to change her will and had us pay her the money back.  Which I guess was all right, and it
was the fact that they wouldn't use it to put her in a nursing home that bugged me, and their
attitude about, you know, they would spend all that money and it would all be gone.  At that
point, they didn't know that she had said and put in her will that it was to go to me.  And so it
sort of caused a little bit of hard feeling because I didn't think they were being fair to her.  They
couldn't take care of her.  Dan was sick - it was a real bad situation.  I don't know.  So we never
were too close after that.


JV: So they bought the house on Day Road, and then when she married your dad and then when
he passed away, she moved out, and you guys moved in there.

JG: Yep.  She took, you know, what furniture she wanted and needed because Mary, her oldest
daughter, had taken over the house because they lived with her after her mother and father died
and Mary got married, Mary and Barney lived with her.  So Mary and Barney took over that
house when she married my father, and she couldn't live with that, she didn't get along with
Barney all that well.  So she had an apartment of her own and took what furniture from the house
that she wanted.  Because I had furniture, I didn't need it.


JV: Today is June 5th, 1998, and we're here in Blue Springs, MO, interviewing Jean Gould, and
you were about to get ready to tell me about a story of when you were a cub mother.

JG: I can't remember any of the stories, except I can remember the little kids coming to the
house.  And I can't remember who was the cub master either, I don't think it was the same man
who was the scoutmaster.  I might think of it, I'm not sure.  Anyway, that just dawned on me
yesterday, I remember being a den mother.  And there were 7 or 8 kids that would come to the
house after school once a week or so.  David went on to scouts from there.


JV: So you were his den mother?

JG: Yeah.


JV: Is that how you got roped into it, because of him?

JG: Probably.  And Robert probably talked me into it.  Which is normal, and it was all right, it
was a good thing for me to do.  He was 6 or 7, so it was about 1950, well, it was when we were
in Middleport so it had to be after '49.  Well, you could handle things then.  I was pregnant, and
my mother was bad, and I was working, but I could still be a den mother.  It was probably sort of
frantic, but I don't remember too many things.  And it probably wasn't all that great.  You know,
and I had the girls there too because Sharon and Linda were around.  I'm sure they enjoyed the
whole thing too.  It amused me, because I wouldn't have thought of that except for Jeff coming
and having to go to Cub Scouts.


JV: So how long was David in your den?

JG: I probably only did it a year or so.  In fact, no, I could have kept on with it after my mother
came back to the house, but I'm not sure that I did.  That's hazy, there was too much going on
then, I can't really remember even who took over after I did, and I can't remember all the kids
that were there because David was a year ahead of everybody down there because he started
school when we were in Fort Niagara.  They didn't have enough kids, so they took them as far
back as they possibly could so he wouldn't have been 5 until January, and he started school in
September.  So he was a year ahead of everybody in Middleport pretty much - or not a year
ahead, he was a year younger than all the kids in his class.  So I really didn't know the kids
because they were probably younger than he was and not in school with him.  But Middleport
was a small enough town so you knew most of the people anyway.  If you didn't, you could soon
find out who they were.  So it all worked out ok.  


JV: Did you have any kind of church callings or anything.

JG: I sang in the choir, I told you about that.  We had a women's group, but we called it the
Phalathian(?) Society, and we used to put on dinners and things for church functions.  Or we'd
put on dinners to make money where we'd all help, but we didn't have the same kind of callings
that you have and the things that you really have to do.  It's all sort of voluntary.  Some people
get very involved, and some people don't.  I did teach a Sunday School class for a while, girls. 
Bob taught a boy's class, and he had the scouts.  No, I guess he wasn't the treasurer, but he sort
of oversaw the accounting stuff and made sure everything was all right and checked on the bank
accounts and stuff, but he wasn't the official treasurer.  That was an old man that had been in the
church for a thousand years, and he was the treasurer until he died, believe me.  So that was the
extent, but I would say that we were fairly faithful members.


JV: So Grandpa was involved in Scouts at times.

JG: Yeah, I told you we always went with Bob Hill who was the scoutmaster to the summer
camp.  And he was the Rotary representative for the Scout Troop, and he used to help Bob with a
lot of stuff.  If they went on trips or anything, you know, he'd drive, and he was involved.  I think
as much as anything to push David because he wanted to see David get his Eagle which he never
did because Bob got his Eagle.  It's not always like father, like son, you know?


JV: What did he do with the Rotary, what was that?

JG: It's a men's service club.  They sponsored different groups.  It's partly social, but more
service than social.  There's a representative from every profession - a lawyer, a doctor, teachers,
accountants.  You could have one accountant, and you could have one CPA, but you could have
two accountants or two CPAs.  And I guess you could have different doctors, like family doctor
or cardiologist, but it was all different professions.  David is a Rotary in Durham now.  That's
how he gets into all this camping stuff, because of course he's a teacher, although I guess he's
not considered a teacher, he's considered - he's the chairman of the history department of the
whole school.  So he's really part of the administration.  He teaches some classes, but very few
anymore.  So that's his status in Rotary.  Which he seems to enjoy, and I don't know whether I
told you, but that's how I've gotten into some of the doctors and things in Durham that I've been
able to, with this eye doctor, because he was associated with one of the eye doctors, or an eye
physician, who was on the Duke faculty, and so he's the one that got me to Dr. Lee.


JV: When you remodeled the house on Day Road, what did you do to it, were there any structural
type changes or....

JG: Yeah, and like I said I cannot honestly remember what we did first and the dates, but your
mother thinks we did the kitchen first, and I'm beginning to think maybe she's right, because the
kitchen was kind of a disaster.  And my mother and father were always going to redo it, but you
know there wasn't the need because they didn't have any kids anymore, it was just the two of
them.  So they would have gotten around to it eventually, I'm sure.  But we did a major change in
the kitchen, put in all new cupboards and just changed the whole format of the thing.  Then the
other downstairs project was - and this is not necessarily in order - we tore off the front porch and
just had a straight front on it, and redid the living room and put a fireplace in.  That changed the
dining room some, but not very much, as far as the downstairs is concerned.  And then the stairs
going up, we changed that because it was an open stairway and we closed it.  The upstairs, we
didn't change the bedrooms, except we altered one bedroom so we could make the bathroom
bigger and put in an all new bathroom.  And the attic, I told you, we fixed for David that wasn't
any real great architectural feat, we did it for him, and he didn't care as long as he had his own
place.  And then the basement we completely redid because we dug it out about three feet
because it was a real low ceiling basement.  We dug it out, and we had to leave that for a couple
years so the water would find its way down underneath so the dumb thing wouldn't flood
because we had a fireplace down there under the fireplace that was in the living room, and put in
all maple paneling on the thing.  And then when Grandpa came to live with us, we added on a
room in the back which incorporated a little small room that was off the dining room, and just
added on and made sort of an L shaped room for him because it was a little bitty small bathroom. 
We put a shower in that, and then put a back porch on the other part of it that was behind the
kitchen.  So we sorta tore the place apart, bit by bit.  But it was fun, and we enjoyed doing it. 
And I guess it was because we just liked living there.  Bob hated the city, always did.  I didn't
hate it as much as he did, but I liked the country as much as he did.  I think we were very happy
there, I was anyway.


JV: And that was in Lockport?

JG: Yep, it was outside of town, 2 miles or so.  Didn't take very long to get into town.  There
wasn't much to get into anyway.  Lockport was not a great city.  I mean, you could exist there all
right, but shortly after when they started all this mall business, Lockport was not far behind and
they had malls and places outside of town.  Now the suburb area, which was the town of
Lockport - there was a city, but all around surrounding Lockport was the town of Lockport, and
we lived in the town.  And the town is now the main part of the area, because it's become almost
a suburb of Buffalo because it's built up so.  Terribly changed.  When David and I went back in
May for Jean Bartrum's funeral, I was just amazed.  And of course, I couldn't see all that well,
and I wasn't quick enough to find the old landmarks.  And I was lost half the time.  I didn't know
which road was coming up.  I always used to know the whole darn area.  But it was very
changed, I'll tell ya.  That's only 10 years, but 10 years can make a big difference.  Well, your
mother sees it in Provo.  In 10 years, Provo has grown immensely, I think, remembering what
little I did from going out there.  Really, very different.  So, I guess it's normal for the times.


JV: We talked about your mom kind of being upset when you had Bonnie.  Just out of curiosity,
why did you decide to have as many kids as you did?

JG: We didn't.  They just happened, I mean, we didn't plan or not plan.


JV: You didn't necessarily say, oh, I want this many....

JG: No.  If you had told me when I first got married that I'd have five kids, I would have told you
you were crazy.  But I've said or indicated before that I'm not sorry I did.  Both of us - Bob had
an older sister, and there was a baby in-between Bob and his sister, but that baby died when it
was very young.  In fact, I think it died less than a year before Bob was born.  Because that's the
only reason Robert was born because they lost that baby.  There's three years difference, so it
can't be more than a year and a half or so, because there's three years difference between Bob
and his sister.  And this baby was in-between.  It died, I think it had pneumonia or something. 
There's this story, and this is from Lucy Gould, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but at
the time that Little Charles, they called him, the time he was ill and died, Grandpa Gould was
living with her.  And he insisted that a little bit of whiskey would help him.  Now, whether he
gave him any, I don't know, but there was always this story that Grandma, Nanna Gould blamed
it on Grandpa that Little Charles died because he gave him a little bit of whiskey on his tongue to
relieve the congestion or something, I'm not sure what.  But I think that a lot of that is just story
to indicate that once in a while maybe Grandpa tipped a little bit, I don't know.  Even though he
was supposedly brought up in the Quaker atmosphere, his other actions didn't indicate that he
was a Quaker.  From all I've heard - I did not know the man.


JV: But you've heard lots of stories?

JG: Oh, I've heard lots of stories, lots of stories.  I don't know any of them to be true facts, but he
was quite a, what can I call him?  He'd just up and take off.  They lived in Rome, New York, and
he would just take off every once in a while, never know where he was or when he was going to
return.  Grandmother was a telephone operator, and really the kids didn't know their father all
that well.  I don't........ (tape cut off)


JV: So the friends that you made in Middleport were the ones that you kept?

JG: Yes, I think so.


JV: Did you make any new friends in Lockport?

JG: Not new ones.  There was some of the old - the kids that I knew when I lived there as a
youngster.  But see, I left there in '38, and this was '54, and a lot of them had moved.  There
really wasn't anything to pull us toward Lockport.  David went to a Catholic high school there
for a couple years, but that didn't do anything either as far as getting us too involved in Lockport
because most of the kids that I was real friendly with in high school were not there anymore. 
One of the girls still lived there, she was divorced.  But she and I never really - we were good
friends, but we never socialized in the same kind of group, because she was more, like I told you,
the social end of town that lived out in Carol (?) Gardens.  And she maintained that because she
married a guy who was the grandson of one of the founders of one of the manufacturing firms
there.  She ended up divorcing him, but still she was still running in that crowd.  There were a
couple people that we were real friendly with, but they too were clients that Bob had been
involved with because of a client that he had in Lockport.  And he had a lot of clients in
Lockport, so those were mostly our contacts.  They weren't the - I consider my friends people
like Dordy that I've known for a long, long time.  One gal in Lockport who I still - we stopped to
see her.  She lived in Middleport when we were there, and then her husband died and she moved
to Lockport.  And we've always kept in touch with her.  One gal that we were very fond of, and
her husband, he died several years ago, and she died two or three years ago.  But she was
younger, I guess she was maybe probably 6 years younger than I am.  But there aren't too many
people there anymore that I really care that much about, or you know, that I have that much
connection with.  I know them, but that's it.  I guess probably I still consider myself an old
Middleport resident than Lockport.  And the kids staying in that same school district made a lot
of difference, I'm sure.  If they had gone to Lockport schools, I'm sure things would have been
different.  I'd had to get involved, because they would have all been in different schools.  They
stayed in the same school - there was only one high school for the whole district, and I told you,
we were the last row in the school district.  Our kids were bused farther than anybody, all the way
around.  There was a school in Gasport.  When we moved, David was 7 years old, and they
didn't make him change because he was used to Middleport, and as long as it was in the same
district, they did not make him go to the elementary school in Gasport.  They let him finish
elementary and then go into junior high in Middleport.  Sharon went to Gasport because she had
just started kindergarten when we moved - no, she was in 2nd or 3rd grade.  She had to change,
and she didn't like it a bit.  She was very unhappy in Gasport.  Once she got back to Middleport,
she was better, but she did not like Gasport at all.  The other kids were ok, because they were just
enough younger so it didn't bother them quite so much.  But it was a much smaller, compact - it
was big area wise, but smaller district wise.  And in Lockport, they had several elementary
schools all over town.  And by the time our kids were old enough, they had built a new high
school, torn down the old one that I went to.  But that was right in the middle of downtown,
practically, so they would have all been in different schools in Lockport.  Very separated because
they changed at 6th grade, and then they went to junior high in other schools, and then to high
school.  It was quite different.


JV: Weren't you closer to Lockport than you were to Middleport?

JG: Yes.  We were 15 miles from Middleport.


JV: So how come they stayed in the same school district?

JG: Because we were the last road in the district. The Day Road was the Rosland Heartland
School District.  Really, I think it worked out best for our kids, because they were basically fairly
happy in Middleport.  And they wouldn't have any family/friend contact in Lockport like they
did in Middleport.  We were much better off, that worked out well.  At one point, we were a little
bit perturbed and tried very seriously to get them to change the district and let us send them to
Lockport, but the state wouldn't do it.


JV: Why did you want to change it?

JG: Just so they wouldn't have to travel so far, and we wouldn't have to travel so far, lugging
them back and forth to the activities and stuff.  But I'm glad that it worked out the way it did,
because I think it was much better for them.  I mean, I had an entirely different attitude and
outlook when I was that age.  And once David got so he could drive, it wasn't that bad because
we had a car that he could use.  So it all worked out, that's the way it was supposed to be as far
as I'm concerned.  


JV: What kind of a car did you have?

JG: All different ones.  


JV: All different kinds?  So you had a car for a year or two and then got a new one?

JG: Yeah, we had all different kinds of cars.  I can't remember what we had - it was an old one,
I'm sure - when we went to Middleport.  But I remember we bought a 1941 Ford from my cousin
when he got back from the service, and that was one of the newer ones that we ever had.  There
was an old Nash that we had - they don't even make them anymore, haven't made them for years. 
And we had Nashes, and we had Pontiacs.  The first one that ever really made much of an
impression was we bought a station wagon - the old wooden side ones - from some people in
Middleport who had a furniture business.  And they were clients of Robert's, and we bought their
station wagon, and that's what got us going on station wagons because that one sort of wore out. 
Then we got a Ford wagon, then Robert had a client in Westfield who had a 1953, I think,
Cadillac, and he bought that.  And then I kept one of the old ones - he used that strictly for
business and driving back and forth.  And then when Dr Barry died, we bought his 1960 Cadillac
because I had driven that a lot to take his wife to the doctor, and I just drove it an awful lot and I
wanted it.  So we got it.  And then after that, well, we had 250,000 miles on that car.  We loved
it, all of us did.  That's the one David wrecked - not really didn't wreck it, but he smashed the
front end in, and after that we had a 1970 or '70-something Pontiac.  Well, actually, that
belonged to a client too, but he didn't like it, so it only had 2 or 3,000 miles on it, and Robert
took that, the car, in lieu of what they owed him because they didn't have the money to pay him. 
And after that we had a 1975 Cadillac which was mine, and after the 1975 Cadillac I had my
cataracts removed and I couldn't drive, so that one was traded in for a 1980 Cadillac, and then
when I got the contacts I could drive again, so I think that's when I got my first Horizon, which
was a Pontiac, I think.  No, it's a smaller Chrysler-Plymouth, a small version of the Plymouth
when they first came out.  So I got one of those and drove that for several years while Robert was
driving the 1980 Cadillac, and that one is the one that he had the rear-end with that he didn't
why, and then he just, he quit driving.  So he sold that one, and he had just the Volvo from then
on.  And then I bought the new 1988 Horizon, and that's the last car I had.  And that's the one
that David and Lynn have now.


JV: When was the first time you had two cars?

JG: Oh, geez, I can't remember.


JV: Did you just have one car for a long time?

JG: Oh yeah, most of the time we lived in Middleport we had just one car.  


JV: Not many people at that time had two cars, did they?

JG: Well, we had to because I had to go back and forth with the kids a lot of the time.  I didn't
get my father's car, Helen kept that, and I honestly can't remember - we had the station wagon. 
Oh, that's when we started getting, I didn't tell you about the Volkswagon.  


JV: The little Volkswagon Beetle?

JG: I'll have to ask your mother, I don't know.  I'm sure, but there was another small car. 
Anyway, we'll say for now it was Volkswagon.  And we had two or three of those, because that's
what the kids had.  When David got through school, he had what they called the Blue Goose.  I
drove that for a while, and he drove that.  And then he went away to school, and when he
graduated, we gave him the Blue Goose.  And we got another Volvo - Volvo, it was, not a
Volkswagon.  Then we got another bigger-size Volvo, and Bonnie got that one.  Sharon got one
that belonged to Jay and Mama Wolf, and that was a 1960-something Chrysler.  And they drove
that for years.  You ask her about that one, because we came out here [Utah] for their graduation
in 1968, and we drove that thing out here and gave it to her for graduation.  Because you know,
we were planning on giving them all - we couldn't give them new ones - but we gave them those. 
And she used to drive that car for Mama Wolf when she still had her junior license.  Because she
was a good driver, and Mama would let her take that car anyplace and drive it.  Because Mama
Wolf never drove, and Jay had died by that time.  So that's the car that your mother had.  And
Bonnie had the other Volvo.  Linda had a little Plymouth convertible that the kid across the road
had, and we bought it.  He was in an accident up in Nova Scotia, he and David and a couple other
kids went to Nova Scotia one summer, and Bob had that car, he bought it.  He was out of school
by then, and he bought that car, and he wrecked it.  But they had it fixed, and we bought it.  And
that's the one Linda had when she graduated.  And Barbara had an old red Volvo station wagon
that we drove too.  And she had that - she really lucked out because she got it before she
graduated, because I was working and she was going back and forth to school and stuff, so she
had that one.  We had one Oldsmobile in-between that as a second car, and I don't remember
where that one came from.  We had a number of cars in or lives, I'll tell ya.  Oh, we had a Jeep,
too. Yeah, that was a great story about Robert.  We didn't have a new car when he came home
from the service, and they were offering Veterans some of these surplus stuff.  So he hitchhiked
down to New York, borrowed the money from my father to buy this Jeep, and my mother thought
it was the stupidest thing that ever was, that we should have a crazy old Jeep, lugging a kid
around in a Jeep because David was little.  In fact, it was one that just had curtains on the side,
you know.  And we drove to Middleport.  But to backtrack a little bit, he had to have
transportation back and forth to school, because Niagara University was in Niagara Falls.  And so
anyway, we went to Geneva for Christmas when Sharon was little, and she rode in the bed part of
that Jeep with a canvas over her.  She was in her basket - we had a great big huge basket that all
the kids were lugged around in until they went in a crib, because it was, oh, that long and that
wide, it was a good big one.  And so she was in that basket with all this canvas stuff over her so
she wouldn't freeze to death.  Every once in a while we'd stop and make sure she was all right,
getting enough air. (laughs)  Oh, my mother had a fit, she thought it was terrible that we would
do a think like that.  We got there all right, she survived.


JV: Were you ever attached to any of these cars?

JG: Oh, my '75 Chrysler, and Dr. Barry's.  Those two were my cars, the ones that I liked the best.


JV: What happened to those cars?

JG: Well, the 1960 one sat out in the back field for quite a while.  In fact, pretty much the bottom
rotted out of it and some guy came along one time.  I don't know how he'd seen it, maybe just
from the road or something, but he ended up buying that one.  It was in rough shape, but he
wanted to rejuvenate it.  That was Dr. Barry's, it was grey.  It was a 1960, and had those big fins
on the back.  Oh, I loved that car.  And I loved the '75 too.


JV: So it rotted out and the guy bought it.  Did he end up restoring it?

JG: Yeah, I think he brought it down one time and showed it to Robert.  That's sort of vague, but
he said he would when he got it done.  I think Bob just let him have it, I'm not sure.  Because we
went out once and there was a big snake curled up in the back seat because it was nice and warm. 
I think he did get it restored all right.  But that was my favorite of all cars.


JV: Did it just stop working one day, or were you ever in a wreck with it?

JG: Well, it had 250 - and for those days, back in the 60s, that was a lot of milage for a car.


JV: That's a lot today.

JG: Well, no, David's got over 250 on his Volvo station wagon.  But for those days, it was
considered very, very high milage.  And it just sorta got tired.  And you couldn't depend on it,
and that was the reason we went to the '75 because you couldn't depend on it, being able to use it
when he needed to.  Because put an awful lot of milage on cars, going back and forth to Buffalo
and clients and all that stuff.  So we had to have them in good shape.  That was the reason for all
of it, so we had plenty of them.


JV: Who were Jay and Mama Wolf?

JG: They were people who lived in Middleport, who had lived there for a good many years, and
they ran this soda bar.  It was a luncheonette, and it was just a meeting place in Middleport.  They
knew everybody, and everybody knew them, and we just were very, very close friends.  I took
care of their daughter, and she finally died of cancer.  I took care of Jay, he had cancer, and I took
care of Mama, she had cancer.  In fact, when the kids gave us the our 25th anniversary party, it
was a surprise, and any pictures you might see you'll see that I'm in a uniform because I was up
in a hospital taking care of her, and they had rigged up some way so they had somebody come
and relieve me and brought me home, and everybody was there for the party.  We knew nothing
about it, Bob didn't either.  But they were just like family, and we were just like family to them. 
Bob was the executor of her estate.  They were just like family, that's all I can say.  Because they
only had the one daughter, and of course were devastated when she died, and that's when they
sort of adopted us.  It was just more Bob and me that they adopted because they were too old. 
She was 80-something when she died, and they were not used to grandchildren or anything, so
they didn't cope too well with younger kids.  But they were very fond of Robert and me.  












Chapter 10 - Traditions and Kids Leaving Home


JV: Ok.  Well, onto another topic, what kind of family traditions did you have?  We were talking
about when you were a girl, what kind of traditions did you have when your kids were growing
up, birthdays, holidays...?

JG: Easter was a big deal.  The kids always had something new, either a dress that I made, or new
shoes.  And Christmas of course, it was just a huge, great big meal, and Bob and I never got to
bed before 3 or 4:00, and up at 5.  And it was always a routine.  The kids would have their
stockings, and then we had to have breakfast and get that out of the way, and then they could
have the rest of the stuff.  It was just a way of life, I never thought of it as tradition.  There were
things that we did that other people didn't do, I never paid that much attention what other people
did, I guess.  I never gave it an awful lot of thought.  That was our life, and that's the way we
lived it.  It was just routine.  Kids were allowed to have birthday parties once in a while, not
every year.  They all had one or two birthday parties, I'm sure.


JV: Sounds like one tradition you had was giving your kids cars.

JG: Would you call that tradition?


JV: That's kind of a tradition.  You also paid for their college, but that's not really tradition.

JG: No, I don't call that tradition, that's just what we did as a family.  Robert was bound and
determined that they were all going to have a college education if they wanted it, and they did. 
All we agreed to and felt we should do was the four year deal.  David paid for his own master's,
Bonnie paid for hers.  We helped Bonnie a little bit when she was in New York, because it just
wasn't that lucrative down there.  She went to Eisenhower College, and she wasn't really
equipped for anything when she came out of there.  I don't know why she went there, actually, I
really don't, because it never took off at all, it didn't last very long.


JV: Eisenhower College?

JG: Yeah, it was his wife, she wanted to start the college and dedicate it to Ike, and it was sort of
a new phase kind of thing.  They tried to instigate all new types of stuff, as far as I'm concerned. 
Barbara went to India one summer on sort of a work study thing with one of the professors, and it
was just an entirely different format for a college, I think.  But anyway, as far as I'm concerned
she was equipped for nothing when she got out of there, so she went to New Hampshire, and
stayed with Linda and did all sorts of stuff.  She worked for McDonald's I guess for a while and
then she worked for an insurance company and they transferred her out to someplace in Chicago
or in Michigan or someplace, I don't know, I can't remember.  But she was out there for a while,
and then she came back to New Hampshire, and she got into this course, it was for nurse's aid. 
And the county - or Concord, whatever, I think it was state - would train you to be a nurse's aid,
and they would do it for nothing if you agreed to stay and work in one of the state or county
hospitals for a certain length of time.  So she did that, but then she decided she liked it, so she
worked with them as long as she had to.  Then she went and worked at the Concord Hospital as a
nurse's aid and earned some money.  And then went in training up there, she got her RN after she
got her BS.  But that's what I started saying, you know, we didn't feel obligated, anything after
college they did themselves. 


JV: It's great that you were able to do that.

JG: Well, it's something we wanted to do.


JV: Did you have any weekly traditions, things that you would do together as a family, for
example on Memorial Day or on days off....?  (tape cut off)


JV: How well do you think your kids got along together when they were younger?

JG: The normal amount of bickering and fighting.  David felt he was completely surrounded by
females because his father wasn't home all that much.  But I think the fact that they have ended
up as they are, really good friends.  Of course, they aren't on each other's backs all the time
either, so maybe that helps, I don't know.  Because ever since they graduated, they've been
separated.  Once in a while they got a little rambunctious.  David got very perturbed if the girls
went upstairs in his room.  And likewise, I'm sure the girls got perturbed if the other girls went in
the other girls' rooms, because Bonnie and Barbara had a room, and Sharon and Linda had a
room.  And I remember one day, the girl next door that Barbara played with, they were playing
and they went into Sharon and Linda's bedroom.  And we had just bought them a new bedroom
suite, and had a big chest with double drawers in the thing, hard maple.  It was really very pretty
with a great big mirror.  And I don't know where they got the perfume, but they got into some
perfume or cologne someplace, and the bottle got wet, and they set it on top of the chest and
there's a ring there to this day.  It was Barbara, and you'd better believe the girls were pretty mad
about that.  I think of it every time I looked at it, because Bob and I eventually took over that
furniture.  But there was a little bit of agitation, I'd maybe call it, between Sharon and Linda,
because Linda was much more outgoing than Sharon, and Sharon was much smarter than Linda. 
So Linda always felt that she did not quite come up to Sharon, but Sharon felt that she didn't
come up to Linda either because Linda had a lot more friends, lots of friends kinda thing, and she
was in a lot more things at school than Sharon was.  Sharon was more the studious type, the
student, and she had her friends, but they were sort of scattered, and I don't think there was the
close knit friendship with a bunch of them together, it was more individual, I think, with Sharon
than with Linda.  And Linda had a bunch of kids, there was boys and girls together, and they
were always doing something together.  And Sharon wasn't like that, she was very diligent as far
as her schoolwork was concerned, she was smart and she made the most use of it.  She always
did a little bit more than she had to.  I can remember one report she had, she was using the
encyclopedia on something - I think it was for history or social studies, one of the two.  And she
thought she had to get way involved in the thing, and get deep, deep in this situation, whatever it
was, and her father got very angry with her because she was up practically all night doing it.  Of
course, part of that was probably procrastination, waiting until the last minute, but he did not like
that at all, and he got very, very angry.  He talked to the teacher, and the teacher said she just
went way too deep into it, she wasn't expected to do that.  But that's a good example of Sharon. 
But they were always very helpful.  When I worked, they knew what we were supposed to have
for supper, and they could call me if they needed to.  But they always had supper started.  I'd get
it together sort of before I left for work, and if it was a meatloaf or something, they could put it
together, and they'd do it.  It was on the way to being ready when I got home.  And then of
course Robert was there and so they had to sort of keep an eye on him, and they had to keep an
eye on the dog.  I think they were very helpful and pretty well behaved kids.  They were always
ok when we went anyplace.  We never had any problems with them, they were always polite. 
Sometimes they maybe didn't want to go to church every Sunday, but they went.  And they were
involved in things at church, and a lot of their friends went to that church, so that was a helpful
situation.  

And when they got older, with time we started dwindling.  I never really knew for sure, but I
think they missed David when he left.  Of course, he could - and Sharon got so she could drive
too, because there was only a year and a half difference between them, but when he left it sort of
left a hole, and then it started.  It wasn't long before your mother left, and that was awful, except
we had a good time taking her out to school, because we all went.  I don't know about David -
yes, he did too, because we stopped at Reno.  And Bonnie was very angry because she wasn't 12
yet, and she couldn't go into the casinos.  I don't know what they had to be, but she just wasn't
quite up there, and she didn't like that at all.  No, that was a good trip.  I think we went to St.
Louis first and then flew from there down through Oklahoma to Los Angeles, and if I'm not
mistaken, that's the time we flew into Oklahoma, and there was a fire alert on the runway
because either they had not been able to pull up the landing gear when we left St. Louis, or we
couldn't get it down, I can't remember which.  But they were all prepared for a fire.  And their
father knew it, I didn't.  And I don't know whether the kids knew it either, but we found out
afterwards.  We were lucky, I guess.  Nothing happened, everything went fine, but they were
ready for it if it did.  Which made you feel kinda good.  And then we spent a bit of time in Los
Angeles, and I think we rented a car in Los Angeles and then went up to San Francisco and
stopped at Weavers, and then drove over to school.


JV: So you flew to Los Angeles, then drove on the way back to Utah.

JG: Yep.  It was a good trip, it was helpful because we saw where the dormitory, and I had her
name right on the end of my tongue a minute ago, the girl that was her big sister, sort of, in the
dormitory.  She was from Utah, in fact, she was there all the time your mother was, after they
graduated.  She lived in that - what's the little place down between Salt Lake and Provo?  Well,
ask her her name - it's right on the end of my tongue, but I can't remember it.  But she kept in
touch with her for quite a while.  And then we didn't get back out to Utah until they were
married, when they graduated and married.  Or, when they graduated, we went out.  We did not
go for their wedding because they were married and then they came back on the train, and we had
the reception.


JV: Was that hard on you when you couldn't go to the wedding?

JG: Um hmmm.  But I don't know whether I took the same attitude that I do now, but I just
figured that was her way of life, and I just didn't fit in with it, you know, as far as going to the
wedding and stuff.  I think it bothered her father more than it did me - it wasn't terribly easy
trying to put together a reception for her with no help from her or ideas, but I think everybody
had a good time.  It was something different, they hadn't had one of those around Lockport
before.  Because Mormons were fairly new in town, in Lockport and the area.  And the chapel
they had was a home that belonged to people who were "the upper crust" of Lockport, and they
had a son who was my age, and we used to go there for Halloween parties.  They had a carriage
house, and an upstairs where probably the chauffeur used to live, and we'd have Halloween
parties up there.  But I don't think I'd ever been in the house before, before the Mormons bought
it and took over.  So it was a learning situation.  The elders that were there were very helpful, but
they didn't come to our house after a while.  They were informed I guess that we were hopeless,
so they couldn't come anymore.  But they were the ones that lost out.  We didn't.  I told you, we
had that big milk dispenser thing that they just loved.  


JV: No, tell me about that.

JG: I don't know that you see them anymore or not, but it was a big chrome milk dispenser about
2 feet wide, and it sat on a little stand.  There were big cartons of milk - or cans of milk I guess
they were - that you put in, and then you'd just lift the spigot and it comes out in a glass.  And
they used to come down there - they didn't even have to go to the refrigerator, because it was
refrigerated.  All you'd have to do is lift the spigot and get a glass of milk, and they quite enjoyed
it.


JV: Came over and helped themselves often.

JG: Yeah, they did.  You remember Ralph Savage?  He was the first one we knew.  He was the
first one that came to our house.  I can't remember the guy that came with him, because he
wasn't there very long before he left and Ralph stayed.  And I think Ralph was still there when
Dee Blake - I think he was there with Ralph.  And he was the one that, well, I think he was
probably the one that was instrumental in converting your mother.  Because he was young, and
go, go, go - happy go lucky.  He just had the greatest disposition.  And when we went out there,
we met his mother and father, and then another year his mother chaperoned a busload of kids
from the Y who came to take part in the pageant, you know what I'm talking about, the Mormon
Pageant at Cumorah Hill.


JV: The Hill Cumorah Pageant.

JG: Yeah.  Because that was right near Geneva where Bob was brought up.  In fact, Robert used
to spend some time there I think when he finally got his car and had girlfriends, and they'd all
ride down the hill.  But then I got used to Sharon being gone, and Linda was gone.  Of course,
Linda was close enough, we saw her more frequently.  And Bonnie and Barbara left together.  I
quit working, Bonnie graduated in '68.  I had quit working because I couldn't leave grandpa
alone during the day anymore, so I wasn't working when Bonnie graduated.  And then when - it
would have been better probably if I was home.  Bob started the office.  So Barbara was home
during her high school years pretty much alone.  She got home from school in the afternoon, and
she was there until - because Bampi had died, he died in '58 - and she was there pretty much
alone from the time she got home from school until 6:30, 7:00, sometimes after.


JV: When the two of you got home?

JG: Yeah, because we both came home together.  So she had a little different high school years
home life than the other kids did.  I'm trying to think where she worked.  They all had jobs,
incidentally, all during high school.  As soon as they could work, they did.  David worked at a
gas station and a food processing plant, and a coal storage plant.  Sharon worked in a nursing
home.  Linda did cleaning and babysitting.  Bonnie worked at a couple different places, cashier in
Bell's Grocery Store, she played the organ for one of the churches, and darned if I can remember
what Barbara did.  I don't know.  She worked, but she could help her father in the office too,
which she did some.  On weekends she'd go in and help him, filing and stuff like that she could
do.  But other than that I can't remember.  I remember during her college she quit one semester
and came home and worked at a - Fisher Price had a manufacturing, a toy manufacturing plant in
Medina, which is fairly close to Lockport - and she worked there for one semester because she
really didn't know whether she wanted to continue school.  After working full time for a
semester, nights of it part of the time, she decided she'd just as soon finish school.  So she did. 
So that was, and she graduated in '71, or was it '72?  I think it was '71.  But anyway, they were
all graduated from college, and after they all were through, it was kind of a different kinda life.  I
was glad in the way that I could go in the office and do something, because I really didn't want to
go back and work full time anymore, if I didn't have to.  So it worked out pretty well.  Whenever
we could then, we took trips.  That's when we went to Australia.  I guess we went to Hawaii in
'68 or '69, and went to Puerto Rico, Mexico.  So we had fun along the road.


JV: Well, to back up a little bit, what was your relationship like with your kids as they were
growing older?  Did they start distancing themselves like teens do, or were they still close to
you?

JG: You mean as far as looked down their noses to us?  I wouldn't say they were overly - we
gave them fairly free reign.  They were always able to drive the cars as much as they could.  Bob
was a real stickler as far as them learning to drive, and I think that they all ended up good drivers. 
No, I wouldn't call it them distancing themselves.  They certainly all were terribly homesick
when they went away to school for a while.  Even David was.  And David had gone to camp
summers and all sorts of things, but he was still homesick.  And I think that's a pretty good sign. 
They're homesick, which means their ties were still at home, but they were mature enough to
overcome it and get adjusted in school.  And they all did pretty much.  I wasn't too sure about
Sharon for a while.  She was very, very homesick.  But they all managed pretty well, and I don't
think you could call it distancing.  Of course, I can remember this incident with David, when he
graduated.  They were having a graduation party or something, and this friend of his, his parents
had a place, a cottage down at the lake, and so they were going to go down there and have a
party.  And his father let him take the Cadillac, and of course the Cadillac was the pride of our
lives, you know.  So he drove down to the lake with some kids in the car, and I don't know
whether it was on the way down there, or they got out and went out to play chicken, and David
left because he was so afraid something was going to happen to that car.  So he left and came
home.  Which I thought - especially a high school graduation and stuff - I thought that proved
that he showed quite a bit of responsibility.  They were all pretty much the same, as far as I'm
concerned.  And I honestly don't remember anything that ever caused us, you know, other than
the normal squabbles and troubles they got in with friends.  But they never had any problems
with teachers or anything.  We never got called to school.  But they weren't goodie-goodies,
either.  I don't think I'm painting too rosy a picture, because I honestly feel that that's the way it
was.  Because I've said many, many times how fortunate and blessed we were, because they
really never caused us any grief, I don't think.  They didn't go with kids that we didn't approve
of.  Your mother went with one boy, who - I mean, we liked him, but we didn't think he'd ever
turn out to be much - but we never got in any big hassles about it.  And I don't remember having
any of them go with anybody that we said was not acceptable.  And that was happening a lot, I
can remember.  So I really don't think I'm making too rosy a picture, because it really was fine as
far as I'm concerned.  And the fact that I still have as good a relationship as I do with all of them
is another point as far as I'm concerned.  Because, well, Steven for one had no time for his
mother.  He still was respectful, and when she needed him, he went.  But he would not make a
special trip up there just to go and see her.  They did try to have her down there once, and she
was too miserable to stay.  She wouldn't stay, and they didn't want her to.  So it's just one
example, and I know there's a lot of people that - one couple that I think were real good friends,
well, Jean Bartrum for one.  Their oldest one, who is David's age.  Jimmy got a girl pregnant
their senior year in high school, he married her.  Had two or three kids.  Divorced her, married
again, after - in a period where you didn't flaunt you were living with somebody and you weren't
married - he lived with this girl who had been divorced.  They finally married.  And four or five
years ago, lo and behold, didn't he end up divorcing that one and marrying her twin sister.  Now
that, to me, is - those are problems that happen that you don't particularly like to happen.  And
that's what I mean when I say we never had any of that.  One thing that I remember, and this was
when David was - well, it was 1972, so he was 28, and he was - when we were over in Australia,
he was living with - the moved out of this house that this bunch of boys lived in, David was one
of them.  And they had lost the lease on the house or something or they were leaving, I don't
know.  But they were giving up the house.  So Lynn had come to Sydney and got a job, and she
got an apartment, and David was going to move in with her, and your grandfather had fit and fell
in it.  But he was a grown man at that point, so we had no say in what he did.  We could feel
badly, but we didn't have any right to judge him or say that he shouldn't do it.  We didn't have to
approve, but we had no right to criticize.  But that's the only thing I can think of that any of them
did that we didn't approve of.  If they did it, we didn't know it.  Which gives them a credit too
because they had enough sense to keep it quiet. (laughs)


JV: What about - were there any times - did they have curfews?

JG: Oh, when they were younger, yeah.


JV: Did they ever stay out past their curfew and make you stay up until 3:00 in the morning....

JG: Oh, probably once in a while, I don't particularly remember.  Usually, if they had problems
and they called then it was all right.  It was just, you know, so we didn't sit there and stew and
fret and worry about it.  That was the reason for it.  And they were pretty good, if they could get
to a phone they did.  But they did have curfews, and I can't remember exactly what they were. 
But they did.


JV: When you were working, before you stayed home to be with Bampi, what kind of other
things did you do to keep yourself busy, or did working in the house pretty much keep you busy
enough?

JG: Not an awful lot, once in a while we'd play bridge with the Houses, because they lived close,
and we could, but other than that - socially, or business...........


JV: So there wasn't a whole lot that you did outside that?

JG: No, except, you know, the trips we took.  It didn't take an awful lot to make us happy.


JV: Ok, well when you had to stay home with Bampi, what was going on at that time?

JG: Well, he was beginning to get senile, and we were afraid he'd fall or go outside and get lost. 
Then another reason partly was because we had a lady that used to come in in the morning. 
When I left for work, she'd be there around 9:00 or so and stay with him until after he had his
lunch and he'd lay down, and he'd take a nap, and usually he slept pretty much until the kids
came home, one of the kids came home.  But she became ill, and we lost her, so it was just
imperative somebody be with him.  And I didn't, nobody needed me.  Dr.   didn't need me that
much, there was somebody else that could work.  And I'd worked for him long enough, he was
difficult in a way to work for because he was very meticulous, that everything was just so.  He
was one of these guys that never had a wrinkle in his pants, he never had a wrinkle anyplace.  In
fact, he did some surgery, and the nurses in the hospital used to say they thought he even had
creases in his pajamas, that's the kind of guy he was.  There wasn't too much incentive, because
everything was all the same.  You did the same thing day in and day out.


JV: What exactly did you do for him?

JG: I was the office nurse.  I'd get patients ready for exams, do bloodwork and specimens and
shots.  Stuff that would save him having to run back and forth.  But a lot of times, he preferred to
give his own shots.  I used to - somebody would come in, and Dr. Barry was terribly busy, and
that person needed to have her - they'd just come in for an arthritis shot or something - so I'd just
give those people their shots and they didn't even have to wait to see him.  But you didn't do that
with Dr.  .  


JV: What was Dr. Barry like to work for?

JG: Oh, he was a doll.  He was a good doctor, and the patients were very fond of him.  But he
was a much more easygoing and more comfortable person than Dr.  .


JV: So why did you go work for him?

JG: Because Dr. Barry died.  Because remember, I told you after we closed the office I worked
for the bank who was the executor of his estate.  And I worked for Dr.   right after I finished up
with the bank.  In fact, the bank let me go to work for him.


JV: So then you quit....  How long were you home with Bampi before he passed away?

JG: It was about a year, I think I quit working in '67, and he didn't die until October.  He died
just after Bonnie left for school, and she went to Wells.  So it was about a year that I was home.


JV: Was that hard during that year?

JG: No, not really.  I think I sort of enjoyed it.


JV: What did he have?

JG: He died of pneumonia, but we finally - that summer of '68 we went someplace, and I can't
remember where it was we took the trip.  '68, no, that's when your mother graduated, in '68.  We
went out for her graduation, and Bampi was not well enough to go, and they had what they called
a respite place in Gasport that would take people just for short periods of time, people who just
needed somebody to be around them, but didn't need a lot of care or anything.  And they could
give them their meals, and had a bed for them.  So he went down there - he'd been there a couple
other times while we just went briefly someplace.  So he went down there, and before we got
back, he became ill or they couldn't handle him or something and they put him over in the
nursing home because they had a nursing home in conjunction with this place, and he never came
out of it, out of the nursing home.  So he was in the nursing home for July and August until in
September.  And he just deteriorated quite rapidly, I thought.  He was up and about over there,
but he was very disoriented.  Sometimes he knew us and sometimes he didn't.


JV: Kind of like Alzheimer's?

JG: Well, could have been.  No, I don't think - it was just senility, old age.  His poor old brain
arteries were - they were just too old.  They didn't get the blood to his brain, and he just couldn't
function too well.  There was no - you see, then, when we came back, Bob was deep in the
throws of going by himself, because that happened in the fall, October and November of '68. 
And it was just not possible to bring him home again because he couldn't get any sleep.  He was
in restraints for a time at home, and he'd just get out of them some way or other.  We never could
figure out how he did it, but he did.  And he'd be up wandering around downstairs.  We just
couldn't get any sleep, so it was better to have him down there.  And it wasn't good for the kids
to see him like that, so it really worked out better.  I mean, as long as he wasn't - he wasn't that
unhappy because he didn't really know too much where he was, so it really didn't matter.  So
that's why we left him and didn't try to bring him home.  We'd bring him home on the weekends
sometimes for Sunday dinner or something.  It was close enough so we could go see him all the
time, so it was all right.  Now that's what happened to Bampi.


JV: So then just after he passed away you went into work with Grandpa in his business. (Yes)
You did kind of the office work? 

JG: Telephone, mostly.  You know, set up appointments and take messages, because I told you
he wouldn't let me do anything as far as any of the clients were concerned.  I could do stuff
pertaining to the business, I'd write checks and keep the bills straight and stuff like that, but
nothing to do with any of the clients as far as any of their folders or anything.  I just never had
anything to do with that.  But I got so I knew everybody on the phone, and so after I stopped
working for him I did volunteer work doing the same thing, answering the phone for Family
Children's Service, which was a counseling....  I did that for two or three years longer, I guess.  I
was still doing that in '86 and '87 before we left to go to Concord.  I wasn't doing quite as much,
but I'd been doing volunteer work for them for a good four or five years anyway, if not longer.


JV: So you worked with grandpa probably 10 to 15 years?

JG: No, from '68 - in '72, when Roger became a partner, I did not work as much then.  They
hired somebody else for the phone, because that person could do typing and type up some of the
reports and stuff for the businesses which I couldn't do.  Number one, I couldn't type that well,
and number two, Bob wouldn't let me do it anyway.  So I ended up, whenever I went in the
office, I worked strictly for him in his office.  I had my own file stuff, and I kept track of the
time, and I did all of his time reports and kept track of the hours to bill different clients.  But I
didn't do any of the billing of the clients, we had a woman in the office who did that.  I kept on
going in there until the late '70s, until Robert started easing off a little bit, because it was in
'81....  You see, he was 65 in 1980, right?  Yeah,15 and 65 is 80.  So in 1980, he was 65, and he
could have drawn Social Security.  But he kept on working and did not draw any Social Security
for another two or three years.  I took my Social Security at a reduced rate at 62, but there really
wasn't the necessity for me to go in and work in there.  I still did his time reports at home and
stuff, but after 1980 I didn't because that's when Roger started pushing to get him out of there
because he was 65, and they argued and fought and discussed and cussed for two years before he
finally left.  And that's when he started taking Social Security, when he was 67.


JV: What kind of things did you and grandpa do together - through the time that your kids were
at home especially and even afterwards, what kind of things did you do together?

JG: Played pinochle, did things with the kids.  He read an awful lot, and then I got so I read. 
Evening, he'd read or work.  He used to bring an awful lot of stuff home, and that's when I was
doing all the knitting and crewel and that kind of stuff.  And it's probably why I got as much
done as I did, because I didn't have that much else to do.


JV: Did the two of you go on dates?

JG: Oh, we went out to dinner a lot.


JV: Just the two of you?

JG: Yeah.  And we used to go to basketball games in Buffalo, because he still followed Niagara,
and they used to play in the auditorium in Buffalo.  And sometimes we'd go to functions up at
Niagara, but there again a lot of it was business oriented.  But you know as far as being social
bugs, like I said before, we weren't.  And he did not get into sports or anything.  He got - well,
David always used to mow the lawn.  He had an electric mower.  But then after David left,
Bonnie was 15 when David left, no, '61, Bonnie was only 11.  So I guess Robert mowed the
lawn for a while.  I know what, I remember.  After David left, he mowed the lawn for a while but
he bought himself a ride-around.  And he did it on the ride-around and wore that ride-around out
by the time Bonnie was 15.  And when she was 15, he bought her a ride-around and then it was
her job.  And that was her lawn mower, that was hers.  She did all the grass cutting.  He worked
that one pretty good.  But I, well, from the time I worked, I always had somebody clean because I
didn't not like to clean, and I just figured if I was working, I could afford to pay somebody to
clean.  So I did, and I had one ever since.  Even in the trailer, I did not clean.  I'd keep it up daily,
but to get down and dig in the corners, I just wouldn't do it.  My mother was too meticulous and I
couldn't stand it.


JV: I must have gotten that from you.

JG: Sharon did too.  She liked stuff done, but she isn't that crazy about doing it either, any more
than I was.  I don't think any of my kids are.  Except Linda likes to, if she has the time.  But I
think that's the problem now, nobody has the time to do it.  There's to many other things, and
you get involved with too many other things.  That's why my mother could be like she was,
because she didn't have that much to get involved in.  


JV: So did you guys like to go to movies together?

JG: No, very seldom went to movies.  


JV: Mainly when you wanted to spend time together you just went out to dinner?

JG: Yeah.  Or playing bridge.  And we got to be quite good pinochle players because we played
pinochle with Bob and Lois Hill.  So that's about it, really.  


JV: What was your favorite place to go out to eat?

JG: There were a couple restaurants in town.  I think I was telling you about it last night.  We
went out, he said, "What would you like?"  And I said, "A beef on wick."  And you can't get
them anyplace but Lockport, that I know of.  Not like they made them.  Because there was this
Garlock's Restaurant, they used to call it.  It was beef on wick - they had these great big round -
they called them kimowick(?) rolls, and they were crusty and something on top of them.  They
were about that thick.  And then they'd pile them with real thin, shaved roast beef.  And then
they'd have horseradish and ketchup on it.  You can't make them like they used to.  I don't know
why, but nobody can.  


JV: And what's the kind of roll that you put them on?

JG: Kimowick.  They are a real crusty roll, and they have the beef marinated in this juice, regular
beef juice, and before they serve it they dip the inside of the roll in this juice so it gets soft
enough so we can squish it all down and then just take a bite.  But they are about that high when
they start out, but then the juice sort of mixes in, and they just squoosh down enough so you can
get your mouth around it.


JV: Kinda sounds like a french dip sandwich, where you dip the bread in.

JG: Yeah, sort of that idea, but it's the roll, it's just - the idea is the same, I guess.


JV: So was that your favorite?

JG: Well, we always had that for lunch.  When we were in Lockport we always went down there
for lunch, but he was more - he was either spaghetti or steaks - not T-bone - tenderloin.  That was
his favorite.  He had tenderloin steak and baked potatoes.


JV: And what was your favorite?

JG: Oh, I usually had steak.  I didn't care so much whether I had tenderloin, but I don't know that
I really had any great preference.  I didn't like spaghetti as much as he did, it was mostly beef and
chicken.  I guess I ate steak pretty much as much as he did.  I very seldom bought tenderloin at
home to fix.  Once in a while we'd buy one and cut it in steaks and do them.  We'd just sort of
rather go out for those.  And we did, we went out a lot after the kids were gone.  We always went
out for lunch together.  Maybe other people, maybe just the two of us.  But there was a restaurant
right down underneath in the building where the office was.  Tiffany's, they called it, and all the
tables had Tiffany lamps over them.  And we ate there for years.  Always the same lunch - we
had the Rob Roy.  


JV: What's that?

JG: Well, it's Scotch mostly, just scotch, and a little bit of Vermouth, it's a cocktail kind of thing. 
But it's mostly just plain scotch.  But he always had one of those for lunch.  If he didn't have
anything terrible to do in the afternoon he might have two.  But not usually, it was just one.


JV: Was it hard for you and Grandpa to work together?

JG: Not really.  He was difficult to work for because he was so meticulous - well, in his way, as
far as other people were concerned, not me because I didn't quite fall into the same category
because I didn't do that kind of work.  But when I said Dr. Hannah was so meticulous, Robert
was just as meticulous in the way he worked and the way he did his work.  It had to be just so,
and it had to be just right.  And he was hard to work for, for anybody else to work for.  But they
learned a lot working for him.  But I was a little bit different.  And he did get perturbed with me,
if I did something or if I handled somebody the way he didn't think I should.  But generally it
wasn't that bad.  If I don't remember any bad things, I guess it wasn't.  The one big advantage
about working for him and with him was that I saw him a lot more than I would have otherwise. 
Because he never was a 5:00 quitter.  He'd always take the latest bus home he could.  He just
didn't believe in walking out of the office at 5:00 if he was in the middle of something.  He'd
stay until he finished it.  In fact, I can remember driving into Buffalo sometimes to get him
because he missed the bus.  This was before I worked for him.  And if we drove, he'd just always
finish what he was doing before we left.  And sometimes it would be 6:30, other times it would
be 8:30 or 9:00.  He just didn't care.


JV: And by that time the kids were....

JG: Yeah, they were gone.  Oh, once in a while Barbara had to put up with us getting home real
late, but she got used to that too.  I think she felt it probably sometimes, she was sort of a loner,
but I don't think it did anything drastic to her personality.


JV: So when you started working for Grandpa last, then left, what kind of things did you do to
keep busy?  You mentioned your volunteering on the phones....

JG: Yeah, I wasn't involved too much then with activities in church.  Im trying to think, really. 
That's when I started getting into the quilting.  Well, in 1980, I was real sick.  That's when I had
that bad spell in the Christmastime in 1980.  And I didn't really shape up from that thing until
Spring and the Summer, and that's the summer that Barbara was married.  So that took a lot of
time.


JV: So what exactly happened then?

JG: I had what they called status asthmaticus, and I had an asthma attack that they couldn't bring
me out of with medication and stuff, and I had to be on a respirator.  And I was on a respirator
and unconscious for almost a week.  It was a little over a week, I guess.  That took an awful lot
out of me - I lost a lot of weight, and I was just real nervous and very shaky.  But I shaped up
after that.  Once I got over it, I was all right.  Scared me and everybody quite a bit.  They really
didn't know whether I was going to live or not.  And David's birthday was the 5th of January, and
they were all home.  He was teaching, then, out in a private school in Wisconsin, Milwaukee.  He
didn't go back - he called and they told him to stay because they didn't think I was going to make
it.  And so he stayed that week after New Years, and on his birthday I woke up and when he
walked in the door, I said, "Happy Birthday."  We've always remembered that, because I don't
know why I did it.  It must have been on my mind subconsciously.  And I saw him walk in the
door and it was his birthday.  But that's when I started the quilting stuff.  I got involved in that - I
did a lot of quilting stuff before I started making the first quilt, the big one - pillows and stuff like
that.  And I was working to put together a double wedding ring, and doing it all myself, and it
was just too much.  I had gotten so weak and jittery that I just couldn't cut the things right.  And
even though this girl who did a lot of quilting helped me, I just decided I couldn't cut all those
squares.  Because you know what they are, don't you?  A double wedding ring is........


JV: Now, tell me again because I've forgotten exactly what it was that you said, but you said that
you basically paid for everybody to get their bachelor's degrees.  And how was it that you were
able to pay for that again?  Grandpa - 

JG: When he became a partner in the first CPA firm, they had a bonus every year when they
figure out their profits, and they always gave the younger - they called them the junior - partners,
they always got a sizeable bonus.  Might be - some years it probably wasn't more than a thousand
dollars or so.  So he put that in a savings account, and we never spent any of that bonus.  That
just stayed in the savings account, and that's what put the kids through school.


JV: Never had to touch any of that for emergencies or anything?

JG: He didn't allow himself to.  We were never - oh, we got in some tight spaces every once in a
while, but he had good credit.  And Robert was not against borrowing, even up to sizeable
amounts.  It proves that because we mortgaged the house, and then we'd remortgage it and 
remortgage it again to do something else.  Every time the loan got a little bit bigger.  But I mean,
we knew we were going to live there, probably - at one point, we probably thought the rest of our
lives.  But he always felt secure enough that he would be able to pay off whatever he borrowed,
and so he didn't mind borrowing.  Besides, if you can do that, it's a good way to build up credit. 
And we had good credit.  So that was - he knew if we really got in a bad pinch or anything we
could always borrow money.  And you could borrow money from a bank if you had a savings
account.  They'd just as soon pay you 5% if you'd pay them 10.  I guess that's how we did it, I
don't know.


JV: So you weren't against borrowing money to get what you needed.

JG: No, because he was confident enough and secure enough so we didn't have to worry.  And he
was very heavily insured for disability, you know, if he should get sick or have a heart attack, he
had disability insurance that would pay us to live if he was sick.


JV: Did he ever get sick for long periods of time?

JG: No, he was never sick.  The first time he was ever sick that I can remember was when he had
the - he had the hemorrhoidectomy, I told you, before we were married.  And he was never sick,
he was never in the hospital until he had the colon cancer.  That's why he was such a terrible
patient.  It was awful.  You know, he had a bout of flu or something every once in a while, but he
was never totally unable to work.  And if he felt like he could do it at all, he could stay home and
do it.  If he didn't feel like going back and forth to Buffalo, if he was sick he just stayed home
and worked at home.  He was never sick.  But neither one of us were until I got sick in 1980.  Oh,
I had a bout after my mother died, and that was just complete exhaustion.  No, we were pretty
healthy.


JV: Exhaustion because of taking care of her?

JG: And Bonnie, the whole bit.  That's what - Robert stayed home, or no - we hired a practical
nurse, we had her 24 hours, because Bonnie had whooping cough.  And he couldn't do any work
and take care of her, so we hired a practical nurse.  And when he discovered he was paying her
more than he was earning himself, he let her go and stayed home himself.  Got Bonnie over
whooping cough, then I came home from the hospital.  But that's the only real sickness we had
that I can remember.


JV: So you were so sick that you went to the hospital?

JG: I went to the hospital, yeah.  It was just complete exhaustion, mental and physical.  Because,
well, you know, I'd taken care of her for so long, and she had a hard death, she had a hard time
dying, we'll put it that way.  I don't really think she was in too much pain, because I kept her
under.  I had enough morphine, so I kept her under all the time.  She began to come to a little bit,
and when they do that, they are restless and you know they're beginning to feel the pain, and I'd
just give her more morphine.  But the night that she died, she just - late in the afternoon, she just
opened her eyes.  I can see her laying there in bed now.  She was in a hospital bed, and she just
opened her eyes.  She looked at me.  I was doing something for her, and she stared at me, right
fixed, she didn't move her eyes or anything, just stared at me.  And I said, "Mother, what do you
want?  You want something, don't you?"  You could tell by her eyes.  And I said, "You want
Dad?"  And I gathered that that's what she wanted, so I said, "Well, you just hold on, he'll be
here because it's almost 5:00," and he'd get there shortly after 5:00.  So she did.  I stayed with
her, and he got home, and he went up and sat with her.  And she tried, all that time, from 5:30 on
'til about 8:30 or 9:00 before she died.  Her eyes were opened when he got home, and then she
just sort of slipped into unconsciousness.  But she had a hold of his hand, and she hung onto his
hand until she died.  In fact, I can remember the whole scenario.  You know, it really wasn't very
easy.  But it always made me feel good because, I mean, that was a cleansing, a forgiveness,
everything.  Because she had felt so guilty about my brother.  And he, I mean, he held a little bit
of grudge because - he held it against her, I think.  He tried not to, but I think he did a little bit. 
And she, of course, blamed herself.  But I think it was a very good thing in the way she did it.  It
wasn't easy, but it was still good, if you know what I mean.


JV: Ok, I guess we'll go back up to when your kids started leaving home.  How did you keep in
contact with them?

JG: Telephone.  We've always had huge telephone bills.  Telephone-itis, we called it.  No, once
in a while I would write a letter.  But I still - you know, I never write a letter.  I get on the phone
rather than write a letter.  And David says, "You should e-mail!  That doesn't cost you anything." 
And once in a while I'll e-mail, but I don't even - that's my gift to myself, or that is my
recreation, pleasure, whatever you want to call it.  Because I don't spend money on movies and
stuff like that.  I pay telephone bills.  And it doesn't bother me a bit.  For one person, a $75
phone bill a month is pretty high.  And I pay $75, in fact, I've paid higher ones, really.  But they -
$75 didn't phase me too much when I was up in Concord. 


JV: What about when the kids first started, when they were in college and that sort of thing? 
Was it still mainly telephone?

JG: Yeah, we still talked to them.  And we went to see them.  We took - David's was the farthest,
it took about 2 hours to get to see him.  But Bonnie and Barbara were only about an hour or so. 
But I don't think we tried to keep in touch with them that closely, because we felt that they were
grown up and pretty much on their own.  If they needed anything, they'd call.  And they did.


JV: So did Sharon rack up huge phone bills calling home?

JG: Yeah, for a while.  But we talked to all of them the same way.  If I got lonesome, I'd call
them.  And we didn't have the kind of stuff that we have now, where you can have a credit card
and call home.  That's what a lot of kids in college do, have a credit card that they can just use
for their home phone number.  And we didn't have things like that - they had to call collect.  But
as long as I can remember, we've always had terrific phone bills.  And when Bob was in
business, every phone bill we'd get I had to sit down and separate the telephone calls, because
half of them were Robert's for business.  And if they're business calls, you can take it as a
business expense.  I mean, you'd have to pay the bill, but you can still take them as an expense
on your income tax.  So that was one of my jobs, I just had to figure out the telephone bill - what
was his and what was ours.


JV: Ok, going onto children's weddings.

JG: Are we that far?


JV: Yeah.  You know, one thing though that I never did ask you.  You said that you were the one
that smoked when you and grandpa got married, but as long as I can remember, he's the one that
smoked.

JG: He smoked cigars.  You remember that?  Sometimes a pipe.  He never, he never smoked
cigarettes.  Never.  All the time I did, he never did.


JV: When did you quit?

JG: 1946.  No, wait a minute, no, 30 and 16 are 46, and so it was 1966.  Because I figure I
smoked 30 years.  And I can't remember whether it was from January 1st to December '66 - I
think it was.  Because Grandpa promised to buy me an electric organ if I could quit smoking for a
year.  And I got the organ.  I cheated a couple times, but I still basically quit smoking and I never
smoked after that.  Because it was accomplished - what he intended was accomplished, so I guess
that's what's important.


JV: If you could quit for a year, you wouldn't go back to it.

JG: Yeah.  Well, I did, yes I did once.  In 1972.  Because Jean Bartrum smoked all the time.  And
in 1972 I was up at the island up with her, and things were really rough in the office, and we had
been up there and Robert went home and I stayed on with Jean.  I started smoking then for a
while.  But it didn't last very long.  You know, I didn't have the habit and the craving like I did
before.  So that didn't last very long.


JV: Was it hard on you to quit?

JG: It was.  It was very difficult.  And back then, there wasn't all this - and they didn't harp on it
being bad for your health and all the cancer scare and all that stuff.  They just said it wasn't good
for you, but no habit like that is.  It wasn't as concentrated as it is now as far as health is
concerned.  So maybe that was one reason, I don't know.  But Jean Bartrum finally quit, but it
was too late for her.  She had lung cancer.  She started out with emphysema, and then had lung
cancer.  So I steered clear of that, God willing so far.  I don't think I'll have any problem now,
you know, as far as cancer is concerned.  Although, you never know.  Mama Wolf was in her late
70s and 80s when she got breast cancer.  And she - she only had one kid.  That was very strange. 
But I'm not afraid of it, I don't worry about getting it.  I just don't think I will.  Famous last
words?  (laughs)










Chapter 11 - The Kids' Marriages


JV: Did you have to pay for all the girls' weddings?

JG: Yeah, we did.  Because Jean Bartrum did all the receptions.  Even for Bonnie - the first time
Bonnie was married, they were married in Tiganic Falls, which was a state park place down
around Ithica and Lake Cayuga.  Jean got all the stuff together, and we hauled it all down there. 
Had it in a state park.  She did Sharon's, and David's we had - I think we had roast lamb for
David's.  I'm not sure, but I think we did.  Of course, that was a big thing in Australia.  They dug
a pit, and roast it in a pit down on the Day Road, because they were married in that - there's a
little church, an Episcopal summer chapel down at the end of the Day Road, and that's where
they were married.  A real old, old place.  We had to go in and clean all the cobwebs out, and of
course Barbara was married in a Catholic church, so the actual wedding part itself wasn't that
expensive.  Bonnie, I can't remember what she wore but it wasn't real expensive.  Linda's was
quite expensive, because she had a long train and the whole bit.  Sharon married Mormon of
course.  But she got all that out here.  But I'm pretty sure we sent her most of - well, she wasn't
working, we had to send her money for it.  I would say we did them all.  Bonnie's second one we
didn't do too much about.  She did that herself.  But that wasn't a big wedding either, that was
down at Linda's.  That was just sort of a buffet thing at her house.  They were married in the sun
room, and the buffet was actually in the kitchen and the dining room.   And it was February, so it
was all in the house, but there weren't all that many people their either.  Cecil didn't have that
much family.  Well, there may have been a couple of his relatives there, but not very many.  And
Bonnie didn't want a big to-do about it, so that was rather a small one.  And David's wasn't a
very big one either.  In the little church, and having the roast lamb.  They weren't awfully
expensive, any of them.  I couldn't tell you how much, but they weren't too bad.  And your
mother - we had the reception for your mother up in the chapel, the Mormon chapel.


JV: So Barbara's was at your home, I vaguely remember that one.  Was that the only one that you
held at your house?

JG: What, the reception?  No, David's was in the yard and Barbara's was in the yard too, it was
outside.  I said Bonnie's was down at Tiganic Falls, so there was a variety, you might say.  Linda
was married in a Jewish synagogue.  She had not converted, and the only reason she could get
married in it was because she was taking instruction and they expected her to finish the
instruction, only she never did.  So she never converted really.  She fully intended to, but she just
couldn't accept it, so she quit.  And it didn't make that much difference to Steven.  I don't know
that his parents ever knew it - yeah, they must have.  But they weren't reformed, and she was
married in a reformed one.  I think his mother and father were orthodox, but they didn't - maybe
they were too reformed because they never observed the holy days and stuff.  And I don't think
she even cooked kosher, I'm pretty sure she didn't.


JV: So it wasn't such a big deal....

JG: No, not really.  They still considered themselves Jewish, but they weren't very active
synagogue-wise Jewish.  We'd say they weren't active in the church, but they weren't active in
the synagogue at all.  


JV: How did you feel when your first grandchild was born?

JG: Waited, patiently.  I'm trying - I can't remember.  I flew out there, but I didn't fly out until
after he was born.  I think I got there the day she came home from the hospital, I think.  Because
they didn't have a very big place.  I was there a couple weeks, I think, if I'm not mistake.  But he
were the first one.  And then Brian, and then Terri.  And then Derek.  He was born in '74.  Scott
was born in September of '73, and Derek was born in May of '74.  And then Ali was born in
September and you were born in November of '75, and then '78 was Sharel.  '81 was Kevin.  '82
was Kira and Kelly.  '84 was Eric and Emma.  And '86 was Rosanne.  If you count them, that's
15.  


JV: That's great that you remember all of them.

JG: Yeah, I was always kinda proud of that.  I get a little mixed up on the days of the month.  I
get Brian and Sharel mixed up.  I know yours is the 22nd or the 23rd, and Kevin's too.  And Scott
and Ali are the 18th and the 20th....


JV: Ali's is the 30th, I think.

JG: All right, then Scott's is the.....  I'll have to think about that one.  Because I don't - I used to
be able to look at my bracelet, but now I can't do it.  


JV: When did you get the bracelet made?

JG: They gave me the bracelet and the disc for Trent, it was probably after he was born, '69 or
'70.  And this is the bracelet that it was on.


JV: So you still have the bracelet, you just gave....

JG: Yeah, I just had the things taken off because they were too heavy.  And there was another
link on this bracelet so they all fit on, there was one on every one.


JV: And you just got each made as each grandchild was born?

JG: Yeah, as each was born I had the disc made.  But it started out with big discs, this big, with a
braid of gold around them.  They were really - they were as big as a quarter, if not bigger.  And I
had one for Terri and Brian and Trent.  And we just decided they were too big, so I gave - I guess
Sharon gave them to them.  Because I gave her the ones for Brian and Trent, and Linda's got
Terri's.  There's a story about Trent's there, because I can't remember whether I was coming out
here, but I was going someplace, I was flying somewhere.  And I had been in the office and I 
apparently was taking a night flight or early the next morning or something.  But anyway, I
remember going to the jeweler and picking up the disc and having them put it on.  He didn't
solder it, he just clamped it on, you know.  And I went home on the bus, and either got ready to
go or whatever, but I discovered that the disc was missing.  And I really went bananas, because I
didn't have the vaguest idea what had happened.  And I thought maybe I'd lost it at the office,
and I called and had them look in the ladies room and all over the place, and they didn't find it.  I
wasn't a very happy traveler, I'll tell you.  Because I went.  But wherever I went, Robert called
me the next morning, and he had found it.  And you know where he found it?  He picked it out of
the toilet in the bathroom downstairs.  I had apparently gone in there when I got home, and I
pulled up my girdle or something and it caught on it, and it ended up in the well of the toilet.


JV: Ok, so now why didn't it flush down the toilet again?

JG: Because it was so heavy.  It just laid on the bottom.  I don't know, but it had to weigh - it
weighed either, at least two or three ounces.  Which is, you know, like a good hunk of.....  A
quarter of a pound of butter is 4 ounces, and this was an all solid mass.  It wasn't like it was
stretched out in a thing like butter is.  It was just one mass that just didn't move.  Besides which,
I was lucky.  Let's face it.  Or we were lucky, or something.


JV: So who was it that gave you that?  Was it just all the kids chipped in to get it for you?

JG: I think I got it for either my birthday, or....  Bonnie and Robert picked out the bracelet, and I
think they picked out the disc too, to tell you the truth.  But that's part of the reason Bonnie gets
the bracelet, because she helped Robert pick it out.  And of course, she won't get any disc.  She
has - it's kind of pretty too - I gave her the thing that I took off [referring to the extra link], and
she had, it's got, you know, this thing and the disc, and she's got it on a gold chain and wears it
around her neck.  It's kind of pretty.  So she'll get the bracelet, and the other kids all have their
discs. 


JV: Yeah, my mom just showed me hers a couple weeks ago.

JG: Well, we took it back to the jeweler's because one of the discs - I think it's Rosanne's - was -
I don't know why he put it on that way, whether it was like that on this one, I don't remember. 
But anyway, we had it changed and done the same as the other discs are so it lays flat the same
way they do.  Besides which, she wanted it - I guess it's Larene's that you can't see very well, the
name.  So we had them put just the first name on the back of each one.  Because it would have
been terribly, terribly expensive to redo the whole thing.  In fact, it would have been almost
impossible to use the same ruling.  So he just was going to put the first name on the back of each
one.  Which is just as good, doesn't matter.  She'll probably end up giving them all to you kids
the way I did, so....  


JV: Did you ever think you'd live to see your great-grandchildren?

JG: I didn't really think too much about it, to tell you the truth, until you got married.  Or
actually, Trent too.  When did they get married, what year?


JV: '92, maybe, '91 or '92.  

JG: And you were married in '94, '95.


JV: '95.














Chapter 12 - Getting Old: Retirement, Health, & Deaths


JV: Ok, so what year did Grandpa retire again?

JG: '82.


JV: And that was because of a lot of things going on in the office, or was he just ready to retire?

JG: Well, he was 67.  And actually, I think he had been beginning to have vague problems.  He
wasn't quite as sharp as he used to be, and I think this was a very insidious thing.  But most of it
was because it was such a hassle, and he was just tired of arguing and just wanted it over with,
and didn't want to have to argue and fight with Roger anymore, was part of it, I guess.  And
people tried to convince him that, you know, he was 67, he was old enough.  There probably
were a lot of factors.  It took an awful lot out of him when I was sick, and I think after that, he
decided pretty much that he was going to retire.  But it just took him a long time to do it, and get
the thing in motion the way he wanted it.  He got pretty much what he wanted - not completely,
but....


JV: Pretty much what he wanted in.....

JG: He kept some of the clients, did the clients around Lockport, kept some of those.  And he got
a fairly good retirement thing that lasted, I don't know, 7 or 8 years. 


JV: Retirement stipend?

JG: Yeah, I think it was an 8-year payoff or something.  And with my getting the Social Security
and him getting the Social Security, it meant that we could build up a next egg financially.  We
didn't really need to - we spent a lot of it, but we really didn't have to.  We could have been
much better off than we were.  He didn't care about accumulating a lot of money, and we always
said that we didn't have to worry about leaving money to the kids because there was too many of
them, and whatever we could leave them wouldn't do them much good anyway.  So....  That was
pretty much our thinking, and I think too we figured we'd done enough for them all during their
growing up years, and why should we knock ourselves out to leave them a lot of money?  So we
didn't.  They'll get a little, but not too much.  Because I'm going to Europe, for one thing.
(laughs)


JV: And you need to enjoy yourself while you're here!

JG: I am!  I am.  So however much I'm able to accumulate, fine.  They'll get it.  And what I
don't, they won't.  It bothered me - well, it does bother me a little bit.  I had in my mind just
about what I figured they'd get and what I wanted them to get, and if I don't get fairly close to
that, I might be a little bit perturbed, but not too badly.  I mean, I'm not going to go and do
anything real drastic because I'm so upset, I'll tell ya.  


JV: Well, you need to enjoy yourself, you've done a lot.

JG: I do.  And I intend to keep on.


JV: Well, how did your hobby - and Grandpa's hobbies - change over the years?  Were they any
different after.....

JG: I don't think they did all that much.  After he retired, things were different.  I have to admit
they were very different.  He was a different person.  We didn't have the same kind of
relationship that we had before.


JV: In what way?

JG: Well, I sorta got over the idea that he was the one and only person in the world that mattered. 
I learned that there were other people too.  I still loved him, I'm not saying that.  But he was very
difficult to live with those years after he retired.  And I didn't really appreciate it very much. 
And that's one reason I spent a lot of time at the Family Children's Center.  I'm trying to think of
other things that I did, and  I'm sorry, but I honestly can't.  I know I kept busy, but I - well, I
started traveling then, too.  I'd just get the notion that I wanted to go and see one of the kids and
so I went.  He had stuff to do, and I left him.  And I didn't do that very often.  Every once in a
while I did before, but not very often.  And after that, I really didn't care and get so upset, and I
just went.  If he wanted to go, fine, and he did a few times.  But if he didn't want to go, I just
went anyway.  It's probably why I spent as much money as I did, but it was the only way I kept
my sanity, I'll tell you.


JV: When you needed to get away, you did.

JG: Yeah, I did.  I'd just go.  I went out to Dordy's two or three times.  I went to Florida.  I went
to Linda's.  I went to Washington and stayed with Bonnie for quite a while.  After '69 when we
got the island, I went up to Canada as much as I could.  That's the only way I can tell you it
changed.  We didn't see people - well, Hills had moved.  And that's the problem.  A lot of the
people that we associated with had either retired and moved away, or, well, most of them moved
away.  There weren't very many people around that we were really friendly with.  So that was
part of it.  So, we just lived a retired life, I guess you could call it.  Which is different, no doubt
about it.  It's very different from when you're working.  And the fact that he never really wanted
to retire.  I've always felt that a lot of his problem was that when Mr. Cutting, who was the main
partner in Graft, Cutting, and Coit.  And he was the one who, when they merged with Pete
Marwick, was the partner for a short time before he retired.  Now he didn't retire until he was 70,
but when he retired from Pete Marwick, Robert offered and insisted that Warren take a little - in
fact, we moved our offices so he could have it, have an office.  And he had an office, a room in
our suite of offices, just because he was so used to working, so used to being downtown and
involved with people, that he'd just come and go as he pleased.  I mean, sometimes he'd be there
all day long, other times he wouldn't be in for two or three days.  But he had a place he could go. 
And I always felt that he felt that maybe Roger should or would do that for him, and he didn't. 
And I think it bothered him.  He never said anything, but I think it bothered him a great deal. 
Because he would have gone back - he would have gone back just to sit up there and read a book,
rather than sit home and be out of the mainstream.  He wanted to see and keep abreast of what
was going on.  And it didn't happen.  And I think that's one reason retirement was so difficult for
him.  So, everybody's is different.


JV: So you'd say that he probably enjoyed the years most when he was......

JG: Oh, when he was working.  He didn't enjoy retirement at all.  Not at all. 


JV: Do you think that played a big part in his health failing?

JG: Yes, I certainly do.  I certainly do.  I think he was depressed, he was unhappy, and I think that
just accentuated anything else that might have been going on.


JV: Made it worse?

JG: Yep.


JV: When did his health start going downhill?

JG: '83, and from then on.  It was kinda sad, but you know, I had to go on living too.  And
sometimes I didn't take it very gracefully, I guess.  But in time I got to understand, I think, where
he was coming from.  I don't think it made it any easier, I guess it just didn't make it any more
hurtful, I don't know, I think I just sorta learned to live with it.  I don't think he meant to be nasty
or make things difficult for me.  I don't think he was doing it intentionally.  I really don't. 
Because I believe to this day that he always loved me.  I never had any qualms - and he was a
handsome guy when he was younger, and very likeable when he got older.  You know, he lost his
hair fairly early, but he always had a twinkle in his eye, and people liked him.  Lots of times,
people would say - you know, give me a sideways glance, and, "You mean, you really trust
him?"  And I always did.  I never had any qualms at all that he ever had any thoughts about any
other woman.  Ever.  Never gave it a thought.  And I don't to this day.  And that's what hurts so
when he all of a sudden decided that I was messing around with somebody.


JV: When was that?

JG: This was in that period, '85.  I went to Florida with a friend of mine.  You see, Lockport had
a - they always had a yearly reunion because there was a lot of kids that went down there and
were around Clearwater, and they all got together once a year during the winter.  So I went down
with this friend of mine, because we had a mutual friend who had lost his wife.  And Jean sort of
went with him off and on because she and Jan his wife were real good friends.  So I just knew
she was going down, and I thought I'd like to go to this reunion.  And so I got a hold of Jean and
got a reservation, and Robert came home and I told him I was going.  He wasn't very happy
about it, and he just stewed and had a terrible time while I was gone because his friend from
Rochester that I'd mentioned before and his wife always went down for the winter.  They had a
place down in Sarasota.  So after we had this reunion, Bob and Marge came up to Tampa to pick
me up, and I went down to their house in Sarasota and stayed for a week or so.  And that just
compounded everything, so by the time I got home, he figured I went down to Florida to meet
somebody.  And he never would let anybody convince him that I didn't.  So I just sort of had to
learn to live with it.  I knew I didn't. 


JV: And he probably knew.

JG: I think he did.  I think this was just his - this was not him.  He was not himself.  And I didn't
realize it then as much as I do now, or did after he really got bad.  I told him once, I said,
"Someday, Robert you'll be convinced.  You'll know, because when you die, God will let you
know that I never was unfaithful to you."  And I'm sure he did.  And I'm sure if Robert is
anything like the Robert he used to be, when I get up there, he'll just act like nothing ever
happened, that never such a thing happened in all the world.  It'll never be brought up. 


JV: Was he just like that, that if he made a mistake you just didn't hear about it again?

JG: Yeah.  Oh, if he was really wrong about something, he'd admit it.  No, I didn't mean he
wouldn't admit it.  I just think he'd figure, well, she didn't do it, and that's all right, so wasn't
much difference.  No, I don't expect him to say he's sorry or anything.  But I mean, I'll just know
by the way he asks.  I'll know he found out that I was telling him the truth, and that's all that
matters.  Sorry, I can't let you know what happens.


JV: I'll find out someday too, I guess.  So at what point did it just get too much that you couldn't
handle it anymore?  Was that when you moved up to New Hampshire?

JG: Well, we moved to New Hampshire because I needed - see, so many of our friends were
gone, and I needed some sort of support.  And with Barbara being a nurse, Robert would not go
to Georgia.  He wouldn't go to Florida, he wouldn't go to Georgia.  He doesn't like warm
weather.  He didn't want to go anywhere, he didn't want to move off the Day Road.  But he, I
don't know whether he even really agreed.  Everybody just decided that that's what we had to do,
and so he just had to go along with it.  He didn't like it, he didn't really want to move.  But that
and I just needed another support.  I guess probably you could say, if he had to go anyplace, New
Hampshire would be the only place he'd go.  So that's where we went.  Because it would have
been either Linda's or Bobbie's because of them being nurses, that they could handle it better
than the other kids.  So that's why we went to New Hampshire.  We went to New Hampshire in
'89, October of '89, and he went in the nursing home in August of '92.  We had been in an
apartment, and I had to get out of the apartment because the house had been sold, so that's when
I bought the trailer, and I lived there by myself.  And that's why it wasn't anywhere near as
difficult, as far as losing him and being alone, than it would be for a lot of people, because I'd
been alone for two years.  And so I was used to being alone, so it wasn't that drastic change. 
Besides that, it was because he was so unhappy and miserable all the time we lived up there that I
was glad to see him go.  Because he wanted to die.  If you don't want to stay on this earth, it can
be very unpleasant, I'm sure.  God willing, I won't have to find out.  I'm gonna just keel over and
die in bed.  Go to sleep.  That's what my father did, practically.  It's much - to this day, I have a
much better feeling about my father's last years than I do about my mother's because she died
such a horrible death, and he just went to sleep.


JV: I don't know if we talked about how he died.

JG: He had - Helen went up to get him at work one night, and he looked terrible.  She said he
looked like death warmed over, and he didn't feel good - he felt terrible.  So she took him right
over to Dr. Barry.  And he looked at him, and sent him up to the hospital for a cardiogram.  And
sent him home, put him on some medication and rest, and when he got the cardiogram report, he
told him to stay home for a week.  Not to go up and down the stairs, but to be totally, you know,
relaxed, take it easy, and he'd have a cardiogram the next week.  And he never made it to the
next week.  It was on a Thursday.  Helen got up -he was still asleep - Helen got up.  She went
downstairs, and she was ironing.  And she heard him get up, heard him walk from the bedroom
to the bathroom, and then go back into the bedroom.  And then she didn't hear anything for a
long time.  Finally, she went upstairs, and he was dead.


JV: Was it a heart attack?

JG: Apparently.  Probably was just he had a warning before, and this was a massive one.  But
I've always - I used to say when I thought of my father, I'd think of him, you know, down on the
Day Road, or out in the yard, or standing in the driveway saying goodbye to us or something. 
And when I think of my mother it's always the last day she was a live and how hard a time she
had dying.  And that's one, I think, I'm kinda glad I didn't see Robert.  Because they called me at
night and said that he wasn't very good, that he'd been sort of in and out of it all day, and they
put him on oxygen because his respiration were real low.  And I said, "Well, shall we come up?" 
And I knew the night supervisor quite well, and she said, "No, I think he'll be all right."  And I
said, "Well, go give him a message for me."  And I told her to tell him some things.  So Barbara
and I were going up early in the morning on Saturday, and before she got down to pick me up,
they called and said that she had died.  No, no, I talked to her first, I called and said we were on
our way.  And she said, "Ok, he's not good."  I said, "We'll get right up there."  But by the time
we got there, he was gone.


JV: How much time was it between the time you called and the time you got there?

JG: When we called?  Oh, it took about a half an hour, forty minutes to get up there.  It wasn't
very long.  But in a way I'm glad that we didn't go up that Friday night, because we would have
stayed there all night and watched him die.  And I don't think I wanted to do that again.  So God
spared me that one.  I felt badly at the time that I wasn't there, but he was unconscious anyway. 
And if he was going to hear anything, he would have heard what Jean told him that I told her to
tell him.


JV: What did you tell her to tell him, do you remember?

JG: Oh, just that I'd be there in the morning and that I loved him.  And she told me what she told
him, something to the affect that I was right outside the door.  And I was, in the way of speaking. 
And if he was going to hear, he would have heard that.  So I just decided that that was all right. 
So I did not grieve the way a lot of people have to grieve when they lose someone.  In fact, I miss
him more now than I did then, because then the way he was was in the forefront, I mean, that's
the way I thought of him.  But now I think of him like he used to be, and that's what I miss.  I
still have my bad days, every once in a while I'll feel real weepy.  Everybody says, well, you
should get out.  You should go out more.  You should meet more people.  Well, I don't have any
desire to do that.  Why should I push?  I'm not comfortable going out with big crowds because I
don't hear well enough.  And I can't see why people can't understand that I can be happy by
myself.  I think they've sorta given up.  Decided it isn't going to do any good, so they might just
as well leave me alone.  I don't know, we'll see.  When I get back up there and know I'm going
to be around, and that's where I'm going to end up, I'm going to volunteer for answering the
phone at a teenage pregnancy center.  Not necessarily teenage - young, unmarrieds, mostly, I
guess they are.  I haven't been there yet, but I know a lady who was working there, and she's a
friend of Lynn's.  She's English, and she's going back to England, so I called them quite a while
ago and I said, "I'll come in if you want me to, but I'm not going to be here during the summer
and I won't be available."  So he said, "Well, why don't you wait until you get back and then call
and come in."  That's what I'm going to do, so I'll get out a couple days a week, and that's all I
need.  I'll be fine.


JV: Has anybody ever tried to set you up with another gentleman?

JG: Not that I know of.  If they did, no, I don't think anybody ever did.  I never showed any
interest.  There were several men friends that I had.  But it was strictly a plutonic thing.  It was
cute, up at the park there was this guy up there who used to be a phys ed teacher, and we got into
a lot of different things, but he lived up in the park.  He lost his wife, I don't know, four or five
years ago, and he was very badly crippled with arthritis and he had to use a walker.  But he also
had a bicycle - a three-wheeled bicycle that he could ride around.  And I used to meet him riding
around on his bicycle when I was taking Tigger around for a walk.  So we got talking for a while,
and lo and behold, it was before I came down in November, there was a knock at the door one
morning, and here's this guy standing at my front door.  He had driven - he could still drive.  He
didn't drive in town, but he used to drive around the park sometimes.  So he came over to see me
and see how he was doing because the guy who used to do stuff around the house for me and see
that things were kept in shape and everything, he did a lot of work around the park, and he knew
everybody.  So he, Earl had told him that I was going to move.  So he came over to see me. 
Yeah, he would have been quite a guy.  He'd have been somebody that you could go out to
dinner with or something.  It just amused me that he'd come over.  I think I was kinda glad I was
leaving, to tell you the truth.  I didn't want to have any reason to not want to be involved, I guess. 
I don't know.  I just never did think I would want to remarry.  Robert was the love of my life, and
that's all that is there.  And my father said - I can't remember just how I asked him - but I said,
"Do you love her like you did Mom?"  And he said, "I don't think it's possible to love anyone
else the way you love a person who is your wife and the mother of your children."  But he said,
"She is a very nice person, we enjoy each other, and we were both lonesome."  And that was fine
with me.  He said, "I don't think you could ever feel the same way about somebody else.  It's a
different kind of love.  More companionship."  And that's part of the answer right there, because
I don't really feel the need for companionship.  Enough said, huh?  We're up to the present, you
shouldn't need any more.


JV: Well, we haven't really talked about you and health concerns as you've gotten older and that
sort of thing.  For example, your hearing - when did your hearing start.....

JG: Oh, I've been deaf for years.  Not deaf, hard of hearing.  Because way back in Dr. Hannah's
office, I wore a hearing aid.  I've had three operations on my ears.  


JV: When did that start?

JG: Oh, gosh, way back in the early '60s.  Late '50s, early '60s.


JV: Do you know what caused it?

JG: It's hereditary.  Genetics.  My grandmother, I think I told you, had one of these big battery
hearing aids.  That's my father's mother.  And my father was getting quite deaf.  But see, I've got
15 years on him.  So that's the status of that.  And the hearing never bothers me, because I
figured you can get along not hearing.  Because way back in the '50s, I went to the school for the
deaf.  They had a Catholic school for the deaf.  It was a big home, and the kids stayed right there. 
And I used to go up and take night classes up there for lipreading.  And I got so I was pretty
good, I could do all right.  But then I had this ear operated on, no, this one was operated on first I
guess, and they completely blew that one.  So I've really never had any hearing in this one.  I
don't hear anything in this ear, in my left ear.


JV: Has it been that way ever since....

JG: Ever since they operated, because he fouled it up.  And then I went to another ear doctor, and
he went into this ear.  I wore a hearing aid for a long time, and then he went in and said that he
thought I had a - there's a little bow, and it becomes occified.  I'll think of that later too.  It just
grows so it doesn't move.  You hear because there's vibration inside your ear, and it becomes
occified and it doesn't move, so it doesn't carry sound.  And they go in and fray(?) that bone up,
and it usually clears your hearing up.  But they didn't go that far the first time they operated on
this ear because all I needed was the first bone is the malleus.  It's the malleus, the incas, ...... (?) 
But anyway, they frayed(?) the malleus, and I heard fairly well for a while.  But then it began
going downhill.  Then that same ear doctor tried - went in this ear [left] again to see if maybe
there was something he could do, and he said that it was so bad, they mangled it, there was
nothing.  So then I've been in the hearing aid ever since.  That was in the '60s, because I wore a
hearing aid....  The time I most remember the hearing aid is in Dr. Hannah's office.  So it was
back in the early '60s, '61 ,'62.


JV: And you've been totally deaf in the left ear since the late '50s, then? 

JG: That was the first ear they operated on.  So it never - it's bothered me in later years because
it's gotten worse, and background noises are so bad that I can't hear what's right in front of me. 
And that's why it's so difficult to go where there's a lot of people that I don't know, don't know
what they're talking about, because I have no idea sometimes what a conversation is about.  I
hear a word every once in a while, but I can't understand what the girls say because they chew
their words, they don't speak clearly, they mumble.  And I just don't understand.  They can sit
there at the table and talk to their mother, and I don't get a word of it. 


JV: That's exactly how I was, I think, when I was their age.

JG: Talking like that?  Yeah, you probably were.  Kelly and Eric I have the same trouble with. 
And Kira and Emma too.  When I sit down at the table to eat with them, the girls talk to their
mother and father and I say very little, because I just don't know what they're talking about.  And
that's one reason I don't like to go to a lot of places where I have to talk with people, because I
just feel stupid because I can't tell what's going on.  And that's the reason for that.  I have never
been afraid, though, of not hearing, like I am of not seeing.  Because you can operate not hearing. 
But it's a little more difficult if you can't see.  And that scares me, it really does.  I just try to put
it in the background, and keep going as long as I can where if I get that way, I'll just have to quit,
I guess.  That's one reason why I want to be in this spot so I know where I am, and I can get
around.  I may be fortunate enough not to have it go completely, and be totally blind.  But it'll be
very cloudy and hazy.  I had the trouble going from light to dark and dark to light.  It's very
difficult


JV: When did the problem with your eyes start?

JG: After I was sick in 1980, they had given me so many steroids to get me to breathe.  Steroids
will affect your eyes.  And it wasn't long after that that the cataracts started.  They were in '81 or
'82.  And I had the first cataract removed, and I got a very bad - something degeneration.  It's
part of the retina, anyway, and it just deteriorates because of fluid and infection and trauma.  And
so my right eye has never been any good since the first operation.  I only see a little bit over on
this side.  If I do this [puts hand over left eye], I can see her bed, and I can see one side of your
arm only because I know you're sitting.  I can see that that's light over there, but her bed is the
only thing I can see, and that's very hazy.  Then I had - they did that cataract.  Then the other eye
went bad, and I had this one removed.  That was around in '84 or '85, '84 I think it was.  I went
to a man in Rochester who put me in contacts, and I was fine when I could wear the contacts. 
But then the contacts caused ulcers on my cornea, so I had to stop wearing the contacts and go to
these glasses, and it's since then that they became worried about the glaucoma.  The glaucoma
stuff started shortly after we went to New Hampshire, and that was '89.  The eye doctor that I
went to up there, he didn't say much about it in the beginning, but he watched me real carefully,
and I've been on drops ever since I went to him.  But he knew I was a nurse, and he probably
kept it as long as he could because he knew I'd worry about it probably.  So the only thing we
can do is home that we can keep the pressure and it doesn't get too much worse than it is. 
Because I can still function, mostly.  I don't do too well in dark places, crowds and stuff.  And
that's why I've got to be someplace I know where I am.  And I can function and not seeing very
well.  But that's the only thing that scares me, nothing else does.  I mean, I'm not afraid of
cancer, but basically, I'm pretty healthy otherwise.  This stupid osteo, and I'm shrinking all the
time, but that doesn't make any difference.  As long as my brain doesn't shrink along with it,
that's not bone. (laughs) So maybe I'll escape that, I might be all right, you never can tell.


JV: Well how tall did you used to be?

JG: 5'3".


JV: And how tall are you now?

JG: 4'10".


JV: Really, that much?

JG: Yeah.   That is quite a lot.  I didn't think your bones can shrink that much.  But what it is
mostly is my spine, you see, and the cartilage and stuff in-between.  That's what causes the loss
in height.  I think - maybe these bones are shrinking too, I don't know.


JV: I don't know how it works.

JG: I'm not sure either, to tell you the truth.  But that doesn't worry me or bother me.  It's just the
damn eyes.  And they do, I admit.  Every once in a while, it will really get me down, but most of
the time I keep on top of it. and I've gotten so it doesn't bother me quite so much to ask for help
anymore.  I used to hate it, you know, if I'd go someplace and I couldn't see something, it would
kill me to have to ask anybody.  But it doesn't bother me so much anymore.  Even strangers, I
can ask for help.  I used to go to the store with Barbara, and I couldn't see way up on the top
shelf, and if I thought there was something up there I needed or wanted, I'd ask somebody that
came along if they were tall enough, and I'd ask them to tell me what was up there because I
couldn't see it.  And if it was something I wanted, I'd tell them to get it for me.  Ask them to get
it.  And people are usually pretty nice.  But that's awful, for somebody that's been kinda
independent all her life.


JV: Kinda independent?  Really independent, more like.

JG: Well, all right, ok.


JV: Yeah, that would be very hard.

JG: It is.  And I know I've said, I really have not grown old very gracefully.  In the first place, I
hated to admit it in the beginning, that I was getting old.  Because up until my eyes started going
bad, I really didn't feel it.  In my '60s and early '70s, I did not feel old because until the osteo
started and I couldn't get around and walk as fast as I used to, but in 1992 when I moved into the
park, I used to be able to walk a mile in 15 minutes.  And I'd walk around the park and could do
a mile in 15 minutes, which I didn't think was too bad for somebody 70.  And I really didn't feel
that old.  But I must admit that the last four or five years have sort of changed things a little bit. 
And I guess probably you can say that since Robert had died, because it's four years, four years
in February that he died.  However, I thoroughly believe that I'll live until I'm supposed to die.  I
mean, I think that's all in God's plan, he knows when I'm going to die.  It's all planned.  So why
get all excited and upset about it, because I really don't have the guts to do anything myself about
it.


JV: Not that you'd need to.

JG: No, I don't.  I couldn't even, I don't think I could even overdose on a medicine that I was
taking.


JV: Good.

JG: I'd be too afraid that it wouldn't work.  No, I don't think that I could ever do that.  As much
as I might not want to keep on living, I still don't think I could do it.  However, I could have
some assistance from somebody else and it wouldn't bother me.


JV: But I don't think that anybody's going to give you any assistance with that.....

JG: I told this last doctor that I went to, I was kinda down.  Because I didn't know what I was
going to do, I didn't know where I was going to be.  And I put it in, and he said, "Well, what
seems to be your problem?"  And I said, "Well, I really don't know.  And I don't know for sure
whether I need you, or a psychiatrist, or Dr. Kevorkian."  But there are plenty of times when I've
thought about Kevorkian.  I don't thoroughly disapprove of what he does.  You know, if it's
something that somebody wants.  And there is a good reason for it, like an incurable thing, and
they're just lingering on and on and on.  Quite frankly, if I were totally blind, I would feel that
way.  Because I see no point in going on living, regardless of God's plan, when I cannot do
anything.  And I can't quite imagine myself having the guts or the desire or anything else to learn
braille or anything like that.  Now maybe I could, I don't know.  But it seems to me I'm a little
bit old for that.  And I don't think I'd put forth any effort to try and do anything.


JV: Have you heard of those places where they teach blind people how to live on their own?

JG: Yeah, they had a great Association for the Blind in Concord.  And they did an awful lot of
good.  But it's stuff like that that I don't think I could put forth the effort to try anymore to make
myself independent.  Maybe, I don't know.  But the way I feel right now, I couldn't.  I would
give up.  I would really give up, I think.  We'll see, maybe.


JV: Hopefully we won't have to.

JG: We pray we won't have to.  Because if I can keep like this, I mean, I can manage this way.  I
can take care of myself, and that's all that's necessary.  I could even give up maybe doing
something for someone else and feeling that I was a little bit useful.  But if I have to give up
taking care of myself and doing stuff for myself, then I don't want to live.  And I mean that very,
very sincerely.  Like I said, I don't know what I'd do about it, because I don't think I'd have the
guts to do anything myself.  But....  Let's not talk about that crap.











Chapter 13 - "Looking back over the years..."


JV: Yeah, let's go on.  Looking back over the years, what kind of goals have you set for yourself,
you and Grandpa, for example, or just you yourself, have you set for yourself that you've seen
yourself keep.  Or 20 years down the road, you'd say, hey, I met that goal.

JG: I think our biggest goal was to see the kids grow up and be worthwhile and do something
good in this world, and they've all done it.  I've never had any desire to do anything else or be
known for anything else, that I can think of.  I mean, when I worked and did nursing, I wasn't any
great nurse, I never had any great desires to be any real outstanding one.  But I think I was a good
one, and therefore I was satisfied.  I think Robert, I think he felt very satisfied when he saw that
his business was going.  That's what he wanted to do, he wanted his name known, and he was. 
He was very proud of the fact - and he wouldn't admit it - but he was very proud of the fact that
he was on the Board of Regents.


JV: Oh, that's something I was going to ask you about.  What was that?

JG: New York State's education department was governed by a Board of Regents, and they have
authority over all the licensing, the doctors, lawyers, CPAs, and all of the education in the whole
state.  And he was on the CPA board.  And Mr. Cutting recommended him for it, which made
him as proud as being on it, the fact that he recommended him.  And I think he was very proud of
that.  And he was very opinionated, and got himself a pretty good name, because what he felt was
right he stood up for.  But he was also the president of the Buffalo Society, and he was on the
New York State CPA Society, which is just a society of CPAs in the whole state.  He was on that
board too.  So he became involved, and he thoroughly believed in the CPA profession, and he
was good at it, and he was recognized.  And I think that made him very happy.  And if he had
died in 1982, we'd have....  (tape cut off)


JV: What do you think about general changes in the world since you were born?  

JG: Well, you hear me yell enough.  One of my favorite sayings - you must have heard me say it
or your heard your mother say that I say it, and that is that I'm glad that I'm on the way out
instead of on the way in.


JV: I haven't heard that one.

JG: I think it's a very good one for my generation.  I feel really sorry and worried about you kids
now who are having families because I think it's going to be a very, very difficult time.  And I
think you see the beginning of it right now with your mother and father and the way kids are
now, and they're different than when you were little even.  I mean, kids your age - many, many of
them, put it that way - they're probably worse than some left wingers and way outers - but you
didn't have the - I wish I could really get into it and think of the words I want to use, but you
weren't so self centered, you weren't so selfish, you weren't so demanding, and feel that your
parents owed you so much, and you were here for them, not they for you.  That's honestly the
way I feel about these kids.  I feel sorry for them because I think they're going to have a rough
time, I really do.  And I think it's going to tell on your kids, tell on you having to bring them up. 
So I really have a - not too good an outlook on the future in a lot of ways, because I think all this
technology and rapidity with which things are growing - it's dangerous.  


JV: How so?

JG: I don't think God meant things to go so fast, or wants them to.  I just don't know - maybe it's
because I don't understand all this technology and state of the art stuff that they call it. I don't
want to understand it, really.  I think some of it is good, but I think there's an awful lot of it that
really isn't.  I think the medical profession is entirely different than it used to be.  It's very
difficult to find a doctor anymore that's really dedicated to knowing you and treating you, rather
than treating Cancer #507 or something.  They're all too technical.  There's nothing personal
anymore.  There's nothing personal in your bank account, or anything else.  And that bothers me,
because to me that means that people don't count.  It's all these damn machines.  I could be way
out, I don't know.  But you ask me how I felt, and I tell ya.  It scares me, it really does.  I think
you kids are gonna really have your hands full.  And I don't think that we felt - when we were
going through it, we felt the Depression was awful, and there were a lot of people that went
hungry, and a lot of people lost lots and lots of things.  But number one, generally, I don't think it
hurt us and probably did us some good.  And I think you're going to see things worse than the
Depression ever thought of being.  I don't know.  Don't ask me what or why or how it's gonna
happen, because I don't know.  I just feel it. 


JV: What about any improvements that you've seen over the years?  Do you see that there have
been any improvements generally?

JG: Oh yeah.  I think things that - well, there's improvement in almost anything if you're looking
over a period of time.  Housing - it's much, much healthier.  I mean, we had gas fumes from coal
and heat like that.  With the air conditioning, all of the new inventions.  Where they have actually
done people some good, there's a lot in medicine that is a great improvement, obviously.  But it's
just so much technology, and it goes right back to what I said before - it's technology over
people, individuals, persons.  But I'm not going to argue that the washing machine isn't a good
help.  But from the time I was younger, from the time I was a kid and can remember - do the
washing machines, for instance.  We used to beat it with a paddle, then they got some sort of a
battery kind of thing with a motor down underneath that you could crank, and it turned the
clothes around in the big tub.  My mother had a real, real old one before she got an electric one. 
We had to put the clothes through a ringer that you had to work by hand.  I remember those.  You
certainly can't say that the washing machine we have now isn't a great improvement.  And
because of that, it gives people more free time.  And certainly the lot of housewives, it's much
better, easier, than it used to be.  And I don't know whether someone who is really a good arguer
and on the ball couldn't give me an awful good argument that all this new technology couldn't be
compared to something like the washing machine, and the improvements and stuff.  But, oh, your
mother's favorite example.  Kids using calculators, kids being able to go to the Internet and
finding stuff and not having to look it up and do any research.  Learning how to use libraries. 
Libraries are going to become extinct with all this technology.  And I can't see where that's good. 
Because what does that do to people's minds?  The people who invent all this stuff have to be
pretty smart.  But the fact that these kids can learn to operate these stupid computers at such a
young age to me is kinda scary.  Because if they can sit in front of a computer and do all this stuff
all day long, how much of their minds are they using?  Got an answer for me?


JV: Not a one.  I'm just listening.

JG: Do you understand what I'm saying? 


JV: Oh yeah, definitely.

JG: And it really frightens me.  And it's going so rapidly, that's the frightening thing.  I think the
comparison I was trying to make was, it seems to me it took a lot longer time for this washer that
we have today to evolve from what we were 70, 75 years ago.  And it seems to me - how long
has it been since these computers started?


JV: Late '70s, home computers came in the early '80s.

JG: That's only 20 years.  Where are we going to be in another 55 years?  That's what scares me. 
Like I said, I have to turn around and say, yeah, I think it's great that we've got the washing
machine.  I do.  And I'm sure for, and I mean, in a lot of research I'm sure that they're very
helpful.  But I just wonder about them taking the place of kids using their own minds to figure
things out and to think.  And I gues what I was trying to say was how much - if a four and five
year old kid can sit down in front of a computer and do something, how much brainpower does it
take?  Because their brains aren't developed.  A normal child, anyway.  Some kids are a lot
smarter than others, granted.  I don't know, it just sort of scares me.  Therefore, my thinking -
that I'm glad I don't have too much awful longer to live.  And I'm not so sure I want to be able to
look down from heaven and see what's going on, either, how it's evolving.  Maybe I do, I don't
know.  I know I won't let you know, but I'll find out.  I'll find out, won't I?


JV: Maybe - you can find a way to let me know.

JG: Maybe I can.


JV: Well, we're going to go on to basically some general interest type things, you can call this
miscellaneous.  What's your full name?

JG: Jean Yvonne Coventry Gould.


JV: What was that - you don't like it?

JG: I don't.  My father named me, and I never could figure out really why except that he just
liked French, I guess.  And he used to call me, "John Yvonne."  I don't think kids in my day ever
did like their names.  I wanted to change mine to Helen.  God knows why, I don't know, but I
just didn't like Jean.


JV: He named you, so he never told you why he gave you that name?

JG: No.  I think my mother said it was because, well, I guess one thing that sort of sticks in my
mind that I think I remember her saying, they thought I was going to be a boy, I guess.  And if I
was a boy, I was going to be John.  Why John, I don't know, but that was the closest thing he
could come to John, and that's why he called me John Yvonne.  But he also liked French, and he
took French in school.  I mean, Jean is French, only they didn't spell it with the "ne."  But Jean is
"zhon" in French.  And that's a boy.  The Jeanne is a girl.  I'm the boy, I'm the Jean.  


JV: So maybe there was kind of a double meaning there. 

JG: Yeah, could have been.  If wasn't, pretty good thinking on my part, isn't it?  Pretty good
makeup.


JV: Have you ever had any nicknames?

JG: Covey.  All through school - in fact, all the kids in Lockport call me Covey that are still there
that we were in school with, I'm still Covey.  There's two girls that I call, and every time I say
hello they know exactly who it is.  "Hi, Covey, how are ya?"  And Dordy still calls me Covey
sometimes too.  But they nicknamed me that, probably about the time - 6th, 7th grade, and that's
what I always was.


JV: I know it's from your maiden name, but was it just somebody just called you that one day,
and it stuck?

JG: I guess so, I don't know.  I had a friend Jean, and she was always just Jean.  It's funny the
way people do get nicknames.  It's Dorothy that I've kept in touch with all these years.  Her name
was Zimmerman, her last name was Zimmerman, we called her Zimmy.  As she got older, and
mine evolved into Cov, too, from a lot of people, rather than the Covey.  That was younger.  Cov
was like an  older.  And she was Zimm as she got older.  I can't offhand - I don't remember any
of the other ones who were nicknamed from their last names.  My father was called Covey, Cov
quite often.  My brother was Gordy.  His name is Gordon, only he was really Harold Gordon. 
Because my father was William Harold, and always went by Harold, and my brother was Harold
Gordon and always went by Gordon.  I don't know if there was any reason for the two of them.... 
Well, I do - part of the reason was because my grandfather's name was William, so that's why
my father was called Harold instead of William.


JV: And that's why your brother was called Gordon.

JG: Yep, probably, you're probably right.  Besides, my brother was named after my mother's
brother - she was always real fond of him.  That's where they got the Gordon.  I don't know
where he got it, but anyway....


JV: Who have you most admired throughout your life?

JG: Oh, I don't know.  I really don't know.  I guess you could say Dr. Barry for one.  I had a
Latin teacher that I was very fond of, and I thought she was an excellent teacher.  I had a great
respect for her.  She was a big lady, she never married.  And she lived - I saw her back in the
early '80s - the late '70s and early '80s.  She was still tooting around with her little old
Studebaker.  But I admired and thought an awful lot of Dr. Barry.


JV: Now was he a lot older than you?

JG: Oh yeah.  Well, he died in - he was born about 1900.  He was probably 15, 20 years older
than I am.


JV: What about him did you admire?

JG: Just because he was such a good person.  I told you how he took care of so many people and
never charged them anything.  He was just a real good person.  Besides, he was a lot of fun, and
interesting, and very nice to people.  And Bampi Gould was another person that - I don't think I
really respected any man more than I did him.  He was a really good person.  I never heard him
raise his voice, I never heard him swear, I never heard him say anything bad about anybody.  We
used to say he was the closest thing to a saint that we ever knew.  Even Robert admitted that.  He
admired and had a great respect for his father, except that it irked him a little times that he let his
mother run over him the way he did.  And he did.  He waited on her hand and foot, but he was
just a really, really good person.  Never complained.  I don't think - the kids used to get upset
once in a while because he'd - oh, when he was first there, if they did something that he didn't
like, he'd tell them that he didn't think it was right.  And they'd get upset probably sometimes,
but they all respected him, they really did.  As old as he was.  So, I don't know anybody in my
own particular age bracket that I like any better than I like myself.  Can't think of right now,
anyway.  I mean, I like very much Dorothy - I think she's really done a real great job.  She was a
widow when she was 50 years old, and she was left hardly anything at all.  She had to go back to
work, and she never did work after they were married.  She met him in the service, they were
married before he went overseas - or before she went overseas, she went before he did.  And then
she came home when she got pregnant.  But in the meantime, she had the back surgery before she
got pregnant for Jack.  She had that in England.  And she's always had a very, very bad back, and
pretty much constant pain all her life with the thing.  So after they were married, she had the two
kids, and she never worked.  After Susan was born, she had a spinal fusion, and the oldest boy
went down and stayed with his grandmother Dorothy.  Was operated on at Strong, and their boy
stayed with his grandmother who lived in Rochester.  And Tom and Susie came and stayed in our
house in Middleport, and I took care of Susie because Tom had to go into Buffalo to work.  They
lived in Buffalo at the time.  So Dordy really, it was very difficult for her to go back to work. 
But she had to to support herself.  So she really - she's had a rough life.  But the nicest part of the
whole thing is that her father had a cousin who lived out in California, and she had married a
man who made a lot of money in the oil wells in the middle east.  And she was a very, very
wealthy woman.  I think she was considered a millionaire.  She lost her husband, she had no
children, and she was very fond of Dorothy.  And she lived in California and Dorothy lived in
Denver, and after Tom died, she used to go out there occasionally.  Well, she ended up - Lucy
made Dorothy the executor of her will.  And executors get a pretty good hunk.  And so the last
few years she's had enough money so she didn't have to worry.  She could enjoy herself and do a
few things that she never could before.  I was so glad that that happened to her.  She was good to
her - she went out there a lot, kept her company after her husband died.  She deserved it.  But I'm
just so glad that she got it, was able to have it.  It sure made things easier for her.  So I respect her
too.  But I don't know anybody else.....  I think we've all got our good points.


JV: Ok.  Where's your favorite place to travel?

JG: Canada.


JV: Up to the islands?

JG: Yep.  I enjoyed all these places that I went to - and Australia, I enjoyed Australia too.  And
the only reason I would want to go back to Australia is if David and Lynn went.  But it would
very difficult for me because if I live that long, I'll be 80-something, and that's an awful long trip
to take number one, and I probably wouldn't get back so I wouldn't see the other kids.  And if
they go, I won't see them either.


JV: That's one thing we never talked about was the island.  Will you be sure and write down
about that?

JG: You want to know the whole history - when we bought it and all the funny things that
happened?


JV: Yeah, we don't have time on this, but I really would like to know about that.

JG: Ok, I'll do two pages on that.


JV: And if you want to, you can sit down with somebody, just like you're doing with me.  Or just
sit down with a tape recorder.

JG: But we don't have a tape recorder.


JV: Somebody's got to have a tape recorder somewhere - if you could sometime.  That's
something I didn't even ask about.

JG: Ok, I can expound on the island.  In fact, I could give you a good half hour of it.


JV: I'm sure you could.  What's your favorite thing to do nowadays?

JG: Read.


JV: Who is your favorite author? 

JG: Oh, mystery writers.  I like John Kellerman.  He has all these Alex Stellar ones, and Alex is a
psychologist, MD.  And he had a real lucrative practice going, and he retired because it just got
too much.  And he'd been very lucky with some investments, and he had enough so if he lived,
you know, not too high off the hog, he could survive.  And he did it for about four or five years
and got so he couldn't stand it anymore so he went into consulting, and got mixed up with the
police.


But that's what I much prefer to do now.  I feel very guilty sometimes when I do sit and read
so much, feel that I should be doing something more constructive.  And especially because of
that stupid quilt I have to finish.  And I've got an egg crate full of pictures that need to go
albums.  And I mean an egg crate full.


JV: Well, you know, don't worry so much about getting them in albums, but sit down with
somebody and write the names of who the people are.

JG: I know, and that's what I should be doing, because a lot of them I didn't do that to.  I told
you, there's one picture we have - and a lot of Bob's relatives I can't figure out - we have a
picture of either Bonnie or Barbara asleep in a little wagon that Robert had when he was a kid,
and we had it on the Day Road.  And one of them is laying there in the back yard asleep, and I
don't know which one it is.  It could be either one of them - nobody else knows either.  We've
got one of - the girls had one that we don't know whether it's Bonnie or Linda.  Disgusting, it
really is.  And I keep saying to everybody, write on the back what it is.  Take my word, you'll be
sorry if you don't.  Take the time to do it.  Yes, I know, it's really important.  Because for some
reason or another, you get busier and busier, and you don't get to do it next week, you know. 
I've got to give your mother that, she's got her photographs in real good order.  She took the time
to do it.


JV: What would you say has been your happiest memory, or a favorite memory, something that
you think about?

JG: Robert.


JV: Just general......

JG: Yeah.  Living with him.  I loved him completely, I was very happy with him.  We'd get in a
fight once in a while, but I was still very happy with him.  I was very satisfied with my life.  I was
very happy when I got the organ for Christmas.  But those are material things, I don't think those
are the things that matter.  I've told you this, and you can put this in a half a dozen different
categories how proud I am of the way my kids turned out.  That means more to me than anything. 
That's about all I can tell you, I guess?


JV: What did you do best, what kinds of things were you known for?  Like, whenever you come
over here, we want you to make donuts, that sort of thing.

JG: Now Emma and Kelly like sticky buns.  I mean, Emma and Kira.


JV: I didn't know you made sticky buns.

JG: I had a summer where I made them a lot.  Jean Bartrum was the master of that, and they had
a big plaque, it was up on an easel, all these different pictures of Jean and the island and stuff. 
And there was a space on the table in front of it, and there was a big plate of sticky buns - one of
her grandchildren had made them and put them there because she was known for her sticky buns. 
Everybody got a good kick out of that.


JV: But not necessarily just food.  What else have you been known for?

JG: Well, Kelly and Eric love me because I'm their grandmother.  That's it, I'm just their
grandmother.  I don't know, I can't think of anything specific as far as Linda's kids were
concerned.  I used to have a pretty good sense of humor.


JV: Used to?  You still do.

JG: Yeah, it's not as good as it used to be.  I could come up with some pretty good answers
sometimes.  I don't know that you can call it witty, but if something came to my mind I'd say it, I
didn't think twice that maybe it wasn't quite the thing to say.  Like I told you about the party with
the stainless steel, things like that.


JV: So like among your friends, were you a great pinochle player, or....

JG: No, I wasn't great anything.  I never tried to be.  I wasn't - I liked to bake, I figured I was a
pretty good baker.  I bake better than I cook, I think.  I think I used to be a very good cook, but
I'm not anymore because I don't do enough of it anymore.  I don't cook for myself, and anymore
I can't just go in the store and look at a pot roast and say, well, I can feed 5 people with that.  I
can't do that because I'm not used to the way other people eat anymore, so I have trouble figuring
that kind of getting ready to cook anything.  I have trouble with that.


JV: Did your kids have a favorite dish that they would always want on special occasions? 
Anything special that they loved you to make for them?

JG: Spaghetti was a real favorite.  I never would let them have spaghetti more than once a week,
because I thought it was too starchy.  I used to like to make pot roast.  I never made soup much, I
make pretty good soup now.  But pot roast I like to make.  We used to like that.  I used to make a
pretty good meatloaf.  A favorite meal was roast beef and Yorkshire pudding.  And our favorite
dessert was chocolate pudding with butter sauce.  And it was real butter sauce - you mix up
butter and sugar until it's real creamy, and you beat up an egg in the butter and sugar.  And then
you put in hot water, and it melts some of the butter but not all of it so the butter stays in kinda
chunky chunks, you know, and then when you put it on this steamed pudding which is served
right out of the steamer and very hot, it melts the butter and the butter melts into the chocolate. 
It's very good.


JV: So very rich.

JG: Very rich.  You don't eat an awful lot of it.  If you do, you get sick, and I've seen that happen
too.  But that was everybody's favorite.  We always had it at least once or twice a year for some
special occasion - Thanksgiving, we didn't do it then because that was pumpkin pie.  Christmas
was - my family was fruitcake, that was always Christmas.  But I'd do chocolate pudding
sometimes for Christmas if we were home.


JV: Where did you guys go for Christmases?

JG: Either Bob's house or our house, or home.


JV: Either his parent's or your parent's?

JG: Yep.


JV: How about superstitions?  Have you had any superstitions about good luck or bad luck?

JG: Not really.  No, I don't think so.  I have a thing about my angels now.  I won't go anyplace
without my angels - the one on my coat jacket, that one I always wear on my neck.  And my
earrings are angels.


JV: Why is that?

JG: Because I just like angels.  That one (angel pin) has been in many different places, I'll tell
you.  It's been down Bonnie's drain.  Where else did I lose it?  Someplace at home, and I didn't
find it for a day or so, and I almost went bananas.  I've had that one for quite a while.  Linda gave
that one to me.  I've had one for several years, but this one I've had for at least three years, if not
longer, I really can't tell.  It's a very rare thing that I go out of the house without that angel.  Now
maybe that's a superstition, I don't know.  And I gave the girls - and I should have sent your
mother one, I guess - Bonnie and Linda both have very heavy feet, and I saw in some catalog or
something I saw these plaques.  They say, "Don't drive any faster than your guardian angel can
fly."  And they've both got them hanging right above the back door, they go into the garage.


JV: How about your earrings, where did you get those?

JG: Well, these are a fairly new acquisition.  I got these over in Ashborough, North Carolina,
where we went to visit Kira for a weekend.  And I saw them - they aren't gold, but I saw them
and liked them - so I got them.  But that's the one that's important.  And I guard it with my life. 
I've had to call on - well, I had to holler for Sharon today because I couldn't find it.


JV: What makes it so important, is there a reason that you're so attached to it?

JG: Because I think it's my guardian angel.  I think that it helps me get places and do things that
I'm supposed to do, and takes care of me.  I don't have Robert anymore.


JV: So you've got to have something.  Was it given to you soon after he passed away?

JG: No, I had it before.  Linda got all involved with - there was time when there was an awful lot
of writing and stuff about angels, and she got very interested in it.  And she gave me an angel like
that, way back then.  I just thought it was a great idea ever since then, I've always wanted one. 
Nobody gets that - when I die it's going to burn up with me.


JV: What would you say it is that's gotten you through the hard times in your life?  Is there any
advice that you'd like to give to those of us in younger generations to help us get through
difficulties in our lives?

JG: Well, I probably wouldn't have said this three years ago, but I think it's strictly the faith that
you have and the - God is taking care of you, and if you have faith that he will, he does.  And
things will - they might not be right all the time, but you'll survive.  That's basically the way I
feel, I guess, I don't know.  When I dropped one of these, I had some other earrings that I was
very fond of, and I was always dropping them, especially when my eyes started going bad, I'd
drop them and couldn't find them.  And I always said, "Don't let me panic, God, help me find
it."  And I would find it, eventually.  But I think that's the only thing that has gotten me through
all the - I don't think I was anywhere near as conscious of it when I was younger, but I am now. 
If that means anything.  But you're not supposed to be doing these things when you're young
anyway, so I guess that's what I can count on.  I can't think of anything else that I think is that
important.  I mean, sure, I think you've got to be considerate of other people, but I also think that
that goes along with the faith and the belief that you have.  I mean, I've done some bad things
and I've done some pretty mean things to people, I'm sure.  But I must have been sorry for them,
because I don't think I was ever really punished too badly that I can remember.  Nothing really
bad has ever happened to me, so I think I've been pretty well looked after.  And who else is there
to look after it?  I mean, if you believe in God, you'd believe that's what it is.  And I don't care
whether they think it's the God that we have, or somebody believes in Allah or whoever they
believe in.  If someone believes that there is a supreme being that is taking care of them, that's
what's important.  Because then it's not you that you're depending on, it's somebody else,
somebody bigger than you are.  And that's what you've got to have.  That's what makes me so
mad with all these kids these days that I'm bitching about because they think they're so all
important, that nobody understands, nobody knows what's going on with them.  Well, they do. 
And I guess, maybe we've just got to give them time, I don't know.  But I just hope God knows
what he's doing.  I'm sure he does, and it's probably a good thing that he knows and we don't. 
It's probably the way he planned it, you know.


JV: Yeah, that way we have to have faith.  I wanted to make sure I got that, but there are just
some other things real quick.  Now, your favorite food - we were talking about this a little bit
earlier.  Is your favorite food, would you say, steak and that?

JG: Yeah.  I've changed, and I enjoy chicken, but I enjoy it different ways.  But, yeah.  I'm not a
healthy nut.  I don't believe in all this hamburger and french fry stuff, but I like meat and
potatoes and vegetables thank you.


JV: What's your favorite type of music?

JG: For pure feeling and making you feel good - and remember that my hearing now has
something to do with it - I used to like the quiet, peaceful dance orchestras.  But I think one of
my favorite things to listen to is the Mormon Choir [Mormon Tabernacle Choir].  I love to listen
to that, and Sharon's got me a CD of that and I love to listen to that.  I like Yanni, but not day in
and day out.  I like it on occasion.  I just like peace and quiet.  I can't stand this jive and boom
boom that they have now, that drives me nuts.  And as much as anything, it's because everybody
has to have it so loud.  And all kids do.  Kira and Emma, they have to go - Lynn can't stand it
either.  They have to go in their room and shut the door and have it on.  And how these kids
aren't going to end up with hearing disabilities, I can't figure out because they're going to
damage their ears.


JV: Yeah, you're probably right.

JG: What if they think I am an old crock.  And these kids aren't as bad as most of them.


JV: How about art?  Have you liked - have you bought pieces of art?

JG: No.  I am not - it doesn't do anything to me, frankly.


JV: What about - what kind of movies do you like?

JG: I don't go to the movies.  Very seldom.


JV: Did you used to?

JG: No, occasionally.  We went to see, "On Golden Pond."  That's the last one I ever remember
seeing.  Movies like that once in a while I would go to.  We used to go all the time when I was a
kid, but as I got older, we never went.  And we never had any movies like you do now that you
can rent or anything.  And I don't very often watch them.  Once in a while if it's an old one, I
might watch it on TV when I'm alone.  But there again, part of it is because I can't understand a
lot of it.  I don't get what they're saying, so it's no fun watching it.  I just can't watch what
they're doing, I gotta know what they're saying.  And if anybody is talking with their back to the
camera, forget it.  I just can't tell.  Even if it's up loud, I can't tell.


JV: Did you ever have a favorite television show.

JG: No.  Oh, I used to watch Jessica Fletcher, what was she?  "Murder She Wrote," I used to like
to watch that.


JV: Those soaps that you were addicted to?

JG: Some soaps, but I can't remember what they were.  And then I got so disgusted with them.  I
never liked Dallas very well, I never got too interested in that.


JV: What about when the kids were little and when you first got the tv?

JG: I don't remember.  There were kids programs that they liked, and they liked some of the
comedy shows.  But it never made much of an impression on me.  And like I said, Bob enjoyed
much more watching the basketball games and football games and stuff.  That's what we
watched a lot.


JV: What's your favorite season?

JG: Spring, summer.


JV: Spring and summer?

JG: Spring and early summer.  When it gets too awful hot then it gets a little bit sticky.  But I
much prefer even summer over winter.  My most unfavorite is winter, I hate winters anymore, I
just don't like them at all.  I don't like being cold.  I don't like cold bathrooms, I hate cold
bathrooms.  


JV: What's your favorite color?

JG: I don't know, aqua, pink now.  Aqua used to be, I think.  Then for a while I was very fond of
black as far as clothes were concerned, navy.


JV: I can't see you wearing a lot of black.

JG: Oh, I did.  That evening dress I had on [in the picture] was black.  I loved that thing.  And I
had black suits, and Robert bought me - he just brought it home to me one time - a real, pure silk
black dress, and I always felt so badly because it had a square neck, and I hated anything that it
didn't have a neckline and I very seldom wore the thing because I hate - the neck was so long, I
thought, and I wore my hair very short, and it just accentuated it, and I wore it very seldom.  It
was a gorgeous dress, it really was.  


JV: How about animals?

JG: Oh, my two Samoyeds.


JV: So dogs, pretty much.  

JG: I like the German Shepherds too, but the Samoyeds are really I think my favorite.  If I was
going to be alone, now, I would have a shepherd, I think.  But I don't like to confine a dog like
that, a big dog, and whatever I had I would have to confine so I could keep track of it.  I can't go
chasing after dogs anymore.


JV: Are you much of an ice cream eater?

JG: Not very much.


JV: I was going to ask you what your favorite flavor was, if you ate it that much.

JG: Right now, I prefer vanilla over anything else I think.  That and maple walnut.  I like maple
walnut.  Your dad [Norman] and I had a maple walnut ice cream when we were out in Utah to
see you that summer, because he likes maple walnut too.


JV: What about a favorite sport?  I don't think you really played sports, that we covered anyway,
but to watch....  Or did you play sports?

JG: Well, it's difficult for me now to watch them because I can't follow it, but I liked to watch
basketball.  I never was a real football fan.  Baseball and basketball I could get interested in.


JV: Did you ever play sports?

JG: Not to much, no.  We didn't have them for girls.  Tennis was the only thing girls played. 
Softball some, but we never had any softball teams or anything.  They just didn't do it.  Roller
skating and ice skating, but that's not like summer, spring sports.  You can't say that I'm a very -
the only word I can think of is divers, but what am I trying to say?  I'm not very......


JV: I think I know what you're saying....

JG: I'm not one to be really interested or involved in a lot of different things, I'm not that kind. 
When I was doing it, I thoroughly enjoyed knitting and doing stuff like that, but I guess it's just
sort of seasonal.  I don't think I'd particularly enjoy going back to knitting.  Maybe I would, I
haven't thought about trying it to tell you the truth.